Episode 17:

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Michelle:

Hello Kaylesh. So nice to have you here on WeCultivate: The Pod.

 

Kaylesh:

Hi Michelle. Thanks for having me and thinking about me for this. I'm so excited to be here and just chat with you more.

 

Michelle:

So for all of our listeners, Kaylesh and I were actually in school together and this is the number one primary reason I know her, but also I think it's wonderful when I ask friends to be like, Hey, I started a podcast, do you want to be on my podcast? And they say yes. So I really appreciate you because you did not have to say yes to this. You did not have to take the time out of your Sunday to be here for hopefully what is a great conversation. So I'll let you go ahead and introduce yourself for everyone.

 

Kaylesh:

Alright. So yeah, my name is Ish Bola. I am a title attorney. I live in Baltimore, Maryland. I've had the pleasure of knowing Michelle for so many years now and getting to go to school and also room together, which is awesome. But really I've just been a little bit all over the place. I have a background in education as well, and I did family law for a few years and I love baking on the side and do have an artistic side to me. So I'm at a point in my life where I'm really trying to embrace both of those things.

 

Michelle:

Yeah, and I love that you and I, even though we've known each other for so many years, there are new things that always come out of I think both of our lives and we're constantly rediscovering what the other person is doing, which is really the healthiest way I think to approach an adult friendship is to grow with the other person and to also learn more along the way. But a little bit about why I asked Kyler to be here today is not only is she a good friend for long, but she is someone who many people in the states has had to navigate this complexity of life as an individual life, as an inside of a family, inside of a culture, inside of one or more languages. And of course that's the central focus, but it also plays out in all these other life choices.

 

Kaylesh:

So I'll just start out with how I grew up and that really talks a lot about my understanding of language. So I was born here in the US but a few months later I went off to Malaysia with my grandparents. Childcare was really hard here, especially if your family recently came to the country. So it was really my mom and dad and they had my brother. He was four years older than me. So at that point I think they were juggling a lot and they definitely wanted me to have care with another family member. So I went off to Malaysia at a very young age with my grandma and grew up there with my aunts and uncles and their kids. And so really if you think about a huge family with a lot of people, that was my experience. I would come back here for school, but I felt so close to my grandparents and my aunt and uncles out in Malaysia that every summer my parents tried to send me back there because as a kid it was a little confusing to go from just speaking so much what my family spoke in Malaysia to coming here and going to school and everything was in English.

And I think it was hard for me to code switch at such a young age and understand that, wait, what words are actually English and what is tumble? And in Malaysia they also speak Malay. So I had a little bit of Malay here and there. So I think with just navigating a lot of different languages and cultural differences at a really young age, but looking back, I am really grateful that I had that experience growing up because I think it forced me to just immerse in different cultures and it forced me to quickly be able to see some of the little nuanced differences or mannerisms or what someone in Malaysia might think is polite versus what someone here might think might be rude or something like that. So as a kid, I had a lot of questions all the time, why do we do this?

How come they don't do that there? And I think my parents would joke and say, I was definitely going to be an attorney because I would not leave people alone with questions. So somehow that came true, but never thought of it that way at that age. So yeah, I want to say that once I started college here, it was a lot harder to go back and forth. And I think around that time in my life, I found it was harder to completely connect with my family back in Malaysia just because of so much of the going back and forth that I think you start to realize you have a bit more of an accent because you're not speaking the language as much on a day to day and maybe you forget some words, but just light differences I think that are a lot more noticeable when you are older. That started to hit me and I think it takes a lot to kind of strengthen those relationships and still be rooted in some of that culture that takes work that I didn't necessarily feel like it took work as a kid.

 

Michelle:

Also totally different environment. As a kid, I feel like you're like, all right, here I am with my family, with friends from different places, but you're being shuttled around constantly because you're a small human with no rights, so you're just like, okay, here we are, and I feel like once you're an adult and tell me if it's different, it was different for you. But essentially I feel like you get to connect and reconnect so much more with past memories, but the context is clarified because you now have your adult brain on. You're like, okay, I see how it was a social thing or a cultural thing or a communication thing, and you get to go back and be like, oh, that's why I was feeling weird at that time. And I feel that's so powerful in a way because we don't realize as we're accumulating the sort of data stream that's coming in as a child, we're kind of holding it there I feel for later, and we don't know we've held onto it for so long until those moments of realization come and they're still coming.

I mean, for me, they keep coming all the time, every day, every month, every time I travel, every time I'm somewhere else, I have a new conversation and it's like, oh, oh, interesting. That's why at five years old I was like, what? I had questions, but there weren't people who could answer them at the time around me. So funny that your family thought that you would just become an attorney because of all the questions that you were asking. Yeah, I mean, okay, walk us through that. Walk us through that journey of eventually going to law school and deciding that

 

Kaylesh:

I really can't pinpoint what made me want to go to law school or when that came up. I think it's common for most people. They see Legally Blonde and they're like, oh, maybe I can do that. That seems cool. So yeah, I definitely saw that movie and it kind of clicked a little bit more, but honestly, I always love reading and writing, and so that helped me fall in that path because I was like, attorneys read and write, and I feel like that's what I'm best at, so maybe I'll just do that. And everybody's saying I asked a lot of questions and that I could be good at this, so let me just dive in. And I think of course you hear it all the time, a lot of South Asian families, it's like you have to be in those traditional career paths that they want you to be in. And so for me it's like, okay, well out of these four options, I know I kind of fall in line with this. I'm definitely not going to be an engineer because I did not want to do math or stuff like that, so I just kind of leaned into it and didn't think too much. But I've always had an interest in social justice issues and just thinking about what feels fair, what doesn't. I think a lot of that came from my experiences living in Malaysia and seeing some of the things that my cousins were experiencing as they were growing up. I saw a lot more things that were acceptable for men, but not necessarily for women. I didn't see as many co-ed sports teams or things like that. And so for me it was always like, what? I don't like these roles. I just want to create my own path. And even when I was in Malaysia, I wanted to play soccer with all of my guy cousins, but as I got older, they were just like, no, it's just, no, we don't do that. Sorry, you can't join us. And they didn't mean anything by it. But as a kid I was just like, that doesn't seem fair. And I know we have separate leaks here, but I started to feel like a little bit more of a no than I was used to from growing up in the states,

 

Michelle:

Which I think is really good perspective, even as a kid or teenager, adolescent, whatever, you get to see the contrast and understand that where you grow up, how you grew up, your family, your immediate environment, how massive of a role that plays in trying to find the exact word I want to say, but it's kind of like your range. And a lot of times I feel people who grew up inside of this is primarily language focused, but this is where language and culture kind of work together. It's like this singular context, singular world in the language world, the term is monolingual, but it's also monocultural in a sense for many people. And thinking that the whole world not only works that way, but that's the only version to exist. And I think even if you had experiences traveling where a person had experiences traveling, traveling is very different than having family and roots and trusted communities that you can access in other parts of the world to really understand how locals of different sorts live. So okay, let's go back to the fact that you had four choices, and we are very aware of this in the us. It's not something that I think a lot of people understand outside of North America. The pressure on, we can use the term Asian American very loosely, east Asians, Southeast Asians, south Asians, the pressure to choose certain career paths. Can you talk a little bit about that?

 

Kaylesh:

Yeah, I mean, I think where my parents came to this country, they were fortunate to have a pathway to get here. My dad was working for the Malaysian embassy at the time, and that's how he ended up here. But my mom, she came along with him and needed to find something to do and what she could manage here as well. So a lot of them had to work extra jobs and things for us. And so I think they just didn't want us to have to do what they had to do. I feel like they felt like they were carrying that heavier burden and for them to sacrifice and leave their family behind and come here, they wanted us to kind of pursue these professions that they thought were a bit more stable and would be financially rewarding for us to have that stability that when they initially came here, they didn't have.

So I think a big push was like, oh, you could be an engineer or a doctor or an attorney. Really it was those three, but I think they would be okay with something else if you went to grad school. But I mean telling them you wanted to study art maybe a bit more problematic for them. And I know my parents, they were definitely always coming from a good place, but there was also a pressure of seeing them do all of this, seeing them work hard and just wanting to satisfy that, right, to make them happy and to do what seemed right. And actually for me, it wasn't even a question. It was like, yeah, this is what my parents want me to do and this makes sense. I think this makes sense for me because of over time the encouragement of, yeah, you'd be great at this and I see you in that role. Yeah,

 

Michelle:

That's nice that it was supportive, right? Because I feel like this is a whole spectrum of parenting philosophy as well inside of the Asian American subculture of positive motivational pressure versus you must listen to every single thing I say because we own your life. I definitely fell more on the side. And so that's not a secret, but my, it's to say that the pressure exists, it's the individual family dynamic that sort of dictates how it plays out, but it's also on all of us as individuals, our children born into this type of environment to decide what we're going to do for ourselves. Your parents, so your father worked for the Malaysian embassy. Is that how you ended up in the DC area because there is the embassy there or is it, was he somewhere else? Okay.

 

Kaylesh:

Yeah, so that's what brought him to dc. I am always wishing he came out to California to more warmer. That was the only thing that brought him out to dc.

 

Michelle:

If we talk linguistic environment and we talk about, because we've kind of touched on cultural expectations, but also you going back and forth with your family in Malaysia, which is already a multilingual as a country, what did that look like?

 

Kaylesh:

That really was me going back and forth every summer break. And I think earlier on in my life, I want to say probably first grade to fifth grade, I was very much feeling like I need to go back home. And so I associated Malaysia with home

And me being here for the rest of the year was just an obligation. It was just school. And obviously I loved my parents and my brother and whatnot, but I think I was just confused about what home meant and what felt comforting. I felt comfortable every day with my immediate family, but I still was missing that culture piece where it's like, oh, I miss in Malaysia that just kind of the foods we ate there, just kind of how big the family was. I had a bunch of cousins that we all kind of grew up together and we took care of each other in Malaysia. So going from that to such a small family here, you could feel the difference. It's just like you go from something that feels like such a big celebration to, okay, this is our day to day and this is small and this is different. And the languages, I don't think my parents intentionally didn't speak as much tum when I was here in the States, but I think they had to speak a lot of English with me to reinforce that

They weren't worried about how I was speaking Tamil because they felt like I had picked that up so well. But yeah, they completely focused on English because they were like, you're going to pick up tumble and Malay and things like that there, but we want to make sure you do well in school here and you have that solid understanding. So it was just a lot of switching. I felt like as soon as I got to Malaysia, even the way I dressed or my routine, everything was so catered to how everyone was there and I wanted to fit in so much.

I think I as a kid didn't feel like I could fit in or be accepted at my school because I mean, people did see you as a little different and I don't know, I didn't know any other Malaysian Indians in my neighborhood or around my age, even amongst my parents, like family friends and things. And occasionally I'll find a friend that was of Indian descent, but they would speak a different language and that would create a difference even if we weren't intending for there to be any differences, but I wouldn't necessarily fit in with their friend group for whatever reason. So it was just a lot a constant search of trying to find that group or those people to connect with. And I think ultimately I really had to fall back on just my brother and my parents here and just waiting to have those other connections back in the summer. And it was like, okay, well, the friends I was making were Malaysia not here.

 

Michelle:

Yeah. Did you sort of disassociate kind of like, all right, so I'm here for a school, got to do it, going to survive it, and then I'll see my friends over the breaks. Was that sort of the mental...

 

Kaylesh:

Yeah, and even when I say friends, maybe it's like one or two people that are family friends there, but I would take it as a win. I had friends, a couple of friends here, but I still, even in elementary school, you notice that they're not going through what you're going through. They feel like, and I'm making that assumption, but a lot of them, I would hope had a lot of their family close by. And as a kid I just assumed it was just me. And I think occasionally I would try to explain it to my classmates or explain it to my teacher.

And I still remember, I think it was first or second grade, my teacher asked us to draw something about our family and to label everyone, and everyone was done fairly quickly. Michelle. I was drawing everyone on mine, and sometimes I'd call my aunts just mom as well, knowing that they're my aunt, but out of respect. So literally I have four moms listed on there, four dads, and everyone is confused, and I'm like, oh, no, that's just, yeah, I know they're not actually my mom, but that's my aunt, but out of respect, I'm going to call my mom.

 

Michelle:

Yeah,

 

Kaylesh:

Yeah,

 

Michelle:

Yeah, yeah, I remember that actually also not having a clear idea of who is family and who's family in the sense of whatever I was being asked to do. So yeah, draw your family. Okay, but where do I stop? Because I've met now before, I don't know what age it was probably seven or eight. I know I have 20 uncles on my father's side and also 40 aunts. And also because of other stuff that happened in the family, everyone had other children. And I'm like, I don't, do you want the whole thing or do you want to know who's at home? Because that's a different question, right? And I think, is that your dog, by the way? I hear. I'm sorry. It's okay. I was just like,

 

Kaylesh:

He literally dropped his toy and just looked at me. What did I do?

 

Michelle:

But yeah, it's like this idea that I hear that so deeply, this feeling of, I know this is my normal, but I realize that it's not, and is it just me or are there other people like me, or is this the way it's supposed to work because of whatever reason? I can't tell. And you really do your best. Do you feel like when you were asking questions to your parents that they could explain it? I mean, I just previously was like, yeah, no one could explain it, but maybe that was just me, but it was kind of an assumption. Do you feel like there were adults around you that could provide a little bit more information context, or what sort of responses would they give you?

 

Kaylesh:

I don't think I got much. I specifically remember my teachers being a little confused, right? I'm sure they probably talked to my parents about it, but I think at that age, I think culturally, I don't feel like we talked about feeling so much, so no, my parents didn't sit me down and ask me why I drew it this way or anything like that. I think maybe they just kept an eye on me or maybe they were worried or whatever they were thinking, they kind of processed and handled it as a unit,

And if anything was done, it was done in secret in the background. And so maybe that was part of the reason they kept trying to send me the summers because they realized, oh, wow, she really misses 'em. And I don't think they thought it would go that way originally. I think they were just trying to figure out what makes sense as a family, how can we make sure our kids are supported? And it kind of just unraveled that way of like, oh, wow, she clearly has this strong connection there and we've been sending her, so we can't just cut that off. So I know it wasn't financially easy, but they always found a way to send us back. And then also having to think about, well, do we just send her son as well?

 

Michelle:

Yeah. Yeah. Was it the same for him

 

Kaylesh:

Or? So he grew up here with my parents, but he would go with me in the summer, so that was nice to keep us together. And then he was able to have those connections as well,

But I think it did feel probably a little different for him. And I do remember he would always say, I feel like you act a little different once we go back to Malaysia, or you dress differently, or I think he could see maybe it was that switch of on and off for me that I couldn't tell at that age. I just felt like, what do you mean? I am just being myself, but as an adult, looking back, he's probably a hundred percent, and I wish I could replay that for myself and see what is Malaysia Kaylesh and what is Maryland Kaylesh?

 

Michelle:

Yeah. I also wonder if a boy girl factor here and how historically, especially in the eastern hemisphere, I'll say people have had to conform based on the society's expectations, based on how you look, based on how you dress, based on how you act, based on what you say, based on whatever. And whether that's consciously done or not. I do feel like because it's also a female thing of we need to be more aware earlier in many ways because well, that's the kind of world we live in. And I do think that even if we don't know it, we're doing those micro shifts kind of all the time. The code switching, the sort of, I'm going to morph into this identity for this situation. Oh no, okay. Shape shifting. So I think it's so universal because the question to me is why would your brother not need to do it? Right. Also. Well, I mean that makes sense, right? You were the girl, so that's why.

 

Kaylesh:

Yeah, and I wonder if he did it in different ways, but it never impacted me much if he had to fit a different mold, whatever, because maybe I was used to doing it where for me, maybe it was survival in ways that survival instinct of maybe you have to be a little smaller in this room or a little quieter in this room. And I think now I definitely notice those things, and if I get a little quieter, a little smaller in a space, I'm like, wait, why am I doing that? No, you don't need to do that.

 

Michelle:

Yeah, yeah, of course. It's not to say that he didn't do it at all, right? But it's how dramatically does one have to make those shifts? And I think that's why it looks more visible externally for

 

Kaylesh:

Absolutely

 

Michelle:

Females. Your family speaking English, do you feel that you ever thought about the way that this, not only speaking English at home, but did you ever feel like your English was a little different than let's say the average US person? Also? I speak English in Malaysia, you know what I mean? So just tell me how that was going in your head.

 

Kaylesh:

Yeah, I mean definitely for the longest time I thought toothpaste was Colgate. That's how my mom would say it. I'm like, oh,

That's just a brand, and I know we're not saying it right, and that's fine. I'm going to take it. But things like that all the time. But also just, I don't know, I think certain expressions, things like that I wasn't as used to or had to get used to. And in Malaysia when they speak English, I think it's like everything is a bit more polite in certain ways. I can't even describe it, but you're kind of tiptoeing a lot when you speak, and it's just a different way of speaking, I feel like. And I notice it when I'm back in Malaysia, the way everyone talks and they end up putting lot at the end of everything, which is interesting.

 

Michelle:

Yeah, Singapore I feel like does it way more, but for sure, Malaysia. Yeah, the la I'm like, that is the coolest sound. And I didn't know right until I lived and worked there because I had Malay friends, but not right. It's different when you're in the us, everyone has to kind of coexist and so people adapt. Even for Chinese, I didn't realize how many Chinese people adapted their Chinese to match the US social context because when I went back to China, I'm like, you guys have no idea what I'm saying because your society doesn't work this way. So the shortcuts I can make in the language are different. But yeah, English, the laws at the end, I love them. You know what I mean? In Malaysia, because it's a different flavor of the same language.

 

Kaylesh:

I don't think I realized that the English we speak is a little different or the expressions we use this much until interacting with my husband more and just saying certain things. And it's like he's used to me saying, if something is good, I'll be like, oh, that's nice. Oh, it's so nice. And that's very common in Malaysia, but then you think about it here, and I'm like, I say nice a lot, and people might be like, what is she saying? What does she mean? The flowers are nice. Yeah, exactly. Or the food is really nice. Yeah.

 

Michelle:

Yeah. Because nice in us, English is more a behavioral thing, or you could say it's a nice restaurant atmosphere, but how are the flowers nice, right? Yeah, I completely get it. The food was so nice,

 

Kaylesh:

Michelle. Yeah, that restaurant, it was so nice.

 

Michelle:

Yeah, I also noticed because in, I don't know if it's just French people, but definitely there's something around nice versus kind. And for instance, if we're talking nice behavior in the US, I might say like, oh my God, Kyle, you're so nice. Thank you for this present. Thank you for coming today, blah, blah, blah. I noticed it because Jan started using it. Not nice, but he started using kind in his English, and he'd be like, oh, it's so kind of you to come. It's so kind of you to bring me this present. And I'm like, do we even use kind? And so then when I went back to the states for the first time after being in France for a bit, I realized my English started matching his version of his word choice. So I'd be like, oh, thank you. That's so kind. And small things like that. People were like, oh, yes. And then later on they'd be like, so where are you from? And I'm like, oh my God, you really thought I'm not from here. I chose a different word, right?

Yeah, we've really focused a lot on developmental stuff, but of course that's because you didn't pop out of the womb just as you are today, so you had to go through all this, but the sort of difficulties of feeling like you don't belong or feeling like you're not sure where you are, not knowing how people even see you, I don't know if there are things that definitely stand out to you. Can you share any of experiences that you kind of gone through but you later had to realize these are things that were because, and it's not to say it was wrong, but it was because I had a dispersed family sort of configuration. And on top of that, I had to grow through them, those character building experiences.

 

Kaylesh:

I think one thing that is always something that sticks out is I look Indian, but I think it is different when my grandparents, my great grandparents grew up in Malaysia, and so we've all, our family was all raised there. I don't know any family in India. I know I do have some, but it's very distant and you have to do a lot of tracing to figure out how these people are related on my father's side. But I think it always shocks people that, I haven't been to India, why haven't you? And that culture is different as well. So it's like, well, where do you fit in? I know you look Indian, you speak Tal, which is an Indian language, but things are still different. Your traditions, you have more Malaysian food or

Other things that we're not used to, or even the way that Malaysians in Malaysian speak, Tal is different than the dialect of Tal in South India. And I have family in Malaysia that speaks Sgu, but the ou, they speak the dialect is also different. And my husband's family is from South India, they speak ou. And as a kid I learned ou, but it was different dialect. So the words that I still remember are completely different than what they use. So it's like an added layer of a bit more complexities and really trying to figure out as you move forward, what traditions, what makes your culture or the group that you fit into, and how do these other groups become more open and accepting of you and understanding that, I mean, can you be Indian if you haven't been to India? And what does that look like and how do you define that? How do you accept folks? And it's just understanding that even within folks where you speak similar languages and maybe eat similar food, that there are other little nuances that could set you apart. And finding ways to bridge that. And also trying to see, okay, what other folks have that situation and how did they kind of bridge that and feel accepted?

 

Michelle:

It's not complex because it's difficult. It's complex because the richness of all the different individual branches of your family history, all the different, not only migration patterns, but as you were saying, what you choose to keep in terms of culture, tradition, custom ritual. At some point there was an evolution. There were probably multiple evolutions before you were even born. So by the time it gets to you, it's like you have your own story on top of that. And it's like, this is the reason I feel there have been so many. It's not just looking at nuance because we need to appreciate cultures. It's like, do you even know that these, it's your grandparents, meaning these were people who in the last two, three generations of life, everyone's living in the same point in time and all of this richness is already there. And to explain that to the average person who has never left their country, culture, never had to think about anything beyond just their day-to-day, I do feel this is the gap that I can see. So clearly, not just if we look at the language industry, but just if we talk to humans around the world, it's sort of, yeah. I mean, I don't know if we can cut this out if you don't want me to say this, but basically when I saw you last month and you were telling me for the first time, I didn't know when you're in the US and you have to basically just conform to society's expectations of the type of minority that you are.

 

Kaylesh:

Yeah, I try to be very honest when I interact with folks in life, and even if someone says something and it's a little uncomfortable or not, I still try to lean into that and use it as an opportunity to share my story or give a bit more information. So yeah, it's really common where people ask me, oh, you're Indian, right? They lead you into that. And I'll say, my parents are actually from Malaysia. And then they're like, oh, well you look Indian. What is Malaysia? And it's not even like they're trying to bring it back to their right about me being Indian, and it's not even right or wrong, but me just wanting to explain that extra layer, whereas it makes me wonder if my skin tone was a little different and I said, I was Malaysian. You wouldn't say anything about it and it's fine.

But it's always interesting when you get a little bit of that pushback of, well, no, you look Indian. And so that's when I'm like, oh, yeah, but I'm Malaysian Indian. And so there are Indian people that live in Malaysia, but the culture is a bit different. And that's why I like to say I'm Malaysian Indian, and I don't feel like it's true If somebody says, you're Indian, I feel like I can't just be like, well, yeah, I am. And then they'll ask me, have you been here? Or when have you? And I can't answer any of those things. The culture is different from me. I feel like I'm a bit far removed from it.

 

Michelle:

Yeah, and it's also my personal annoyance speaking here, but it's the how dare you, the audacity where I had someone say Cal Cassity, but I don't think it's not just Cal Cassity. It is definitely audacity because it transcends color at this point. But I feel the how dare people push back on what you are, do you know what I mean? How dare they try to correct you to whatever they believe you should be, because it, as you said, it's not right or wrong, it's just what it is. And it's very strange. I definitely don't think I have tolerance for this on a daily basis, but I also, we all have our own individual challenges, but even in such a multicultural, diverse country society, the us, the DC metro area is one of the most diverse places on earth, one of the most multicultural environments live in. And yet you'll still encounter this, right? Meaning there's a lot of work still to do,

 

Kaylesh:

And I am just so numb to it at this point, but I remind myself, no, it's important to clarify that if you believe that's not your truth, and there is some added layers that it's okay to explain to people. It's just like when it kept keeps getting redirected, then I'm like, it's not my job. So I can explain my truth to you, but whether you choose to hear it or not, that's your responsibility,

 

Michelle:

Which have you ever heard? So if someone's like, oh no, but you're Indian, and you're like, no, my family's from Malaysia, or it's a lot of other stuff, did they ever say, okay, but what's the difference?

 

Kaylesh:

I never had anyone say it like that, but I feel like the focus often is, well, you look just like my Indian friend,

Or you look Indian, and it just kind of redirect to something about being Indian. Maybe they'll tell me an Indian restaurant they really like or it just redirect about that. And so yeah, I can speak to some things about having Indian roots and my husband's side of the family and some of their traditions and things like that. But it is interesting. I don't get very many folks that ask me, why do you have Malaysian roots? What does that look like? Or prior to that side of it? And I think it's because just their perspective that I would've looked different if I was Malaysian.

 

Michelle:

Yeah, okay. I have to move on because there's nothing more I can say, God, the world. I actually wanted to ask you what your parents told you. Did they tell you that you were American? And when you're a kid, was it like, okay, you're American, you were born here, or was it more like you are Malaysian because that's why we're sending you back? Or did they ever specifically tell you what you were supposed to identify as?

 

Kaylesh:

Not that clearly. I think they're always like, yeah, you're American. You're born here. And that was something really proud for them and wanting us to have that. But also, don't forget your Malaysian. This is why we eat Malaysian food and don't forget your culture. I think that was hard for them leaving and coming here, and that was a big fear. Will we raise our kids in a way where we don't even recognize what that culture looks like or them not having their family here we were, how they celebrated their culture, we would do it as a unit. So if that meant making Malaysian quas, which are snack, slashes, desserts at tea time, that's what my mom would do. But they also, I think the other layer on top of it, it's like, yeah, we're Malaysian, but yeah, you're also Malaysian Indian. So I think that's how it came. American Malaysian, Malaysian Indian. So then I just say, I am American Malaysian Indian, and then if you need me to break all that down, I will. But try to piece it together yourself.

 

Michelle:

Yeah, yeah. Oh my God. And that's the thing that is completely a hundred percent accurate and correct, right? It is just, okay. So I don't know if you know that there's a lot of controversy around the hyphen for Asian-American because it's like, I just recently learned about this, but apparently the hyphen, or that's not a word, but basically to put a hyphen in between Asian and American people believe that it morphs into a single identity versus being able to say and right a hundred percent of each, this is still in progress. I have no idea. Every day I'm like, oh, there's a new concept that I didn't know about because I personally, I don't have an issue with the hyphen or not. It's more of that won't change how I think about it. That won't reshape the thing that you're saying is because you have multiple hyphens inside of this, right? Or you don't. But regardless, it doesn't change how your journey has looked right up until this point. So I sort of want to ask you, when you feel in your life, this really clarified in your head, when did you really realize that you are all of these things?

 

Kaylesh:

I think more so in high school. I think there's some point in high school where I think people ask you to dig a little deeper and you talk a bit more about your upbringing and just different cultures, and you read more things that prompt you to think about this stuff a little deeper. So for me, it was kind of a no brainer in terms of how I identified it for myself. And for me, it's like I wasn't going to change that. Even if someone else tried to correct me, that wasn't the case. That's truly what I believe. Yeah, I'm American. I was born here, and there's a lot of the culture that I take in, of course, and I just thought that just saying American Indian would not be true to the Malaysian side and my family in Malaysia. So I feel like American Malaysian also didn't do It justice because yeah, I do look Indian and we speak Tal, so there is that piece. So I felt like that was the only way I could bridge it all together as American Malaysian Indian and my dad would not be okay, or let me live it down if I forgot some of that Indian side too, because there was a lot of history in that. So a big reason that I think my family came here was feeling like Malaysian is very diverse, but I think they felt like it did have these struggles in terms of race and how these different groups came together in Malaysia and questions about opportunities and unfortunately some discrimination, things like that, that they felt growing up there. So I think a big thing for my dad was don't forget your Indian roots as well, because for them that was something that differentiates you in Malaysia. And so my understanding is people identify as Malay, people identify as Chinese and Indian as the three big groups, but I mean now it's even more diverse with folks from other places. But it didn't seem true to just say American Malaysian just because of all the other stuff.

 

Michelle:

There's a question I've been kind of wanting to ask more friend guests kind of like you, which this is such a personal experience, such an individual understanding of what your life and world looks like. Do you feel that if you could go back in time and talk with baby Kaylesh or five, seven, 9-year-old Kaylesh and who was going back and just being like, I have four moms all this, what would you say to her maybe, but also what do you think she would've needed around this time to feel more supported?

 

Kaylesh:

That's a tough one, Michelle. Initially before you added the support element, I was just like, learn all of the languages, immerse yourself, because in Malaysia trying to learn Malay or in Chinese, I think that would've been awesome, but I was just having too much fun and just spending time with folks, which is great, but I think understanding this is the time to do it right, this is the time to pick that up, and that would've been really cool and helpful. But I also think it's just trying to still embrace who I am, regardless of some of those pressures. Maybe it felt like I had to be a little smaller there or to try to be everyone else to fit in. But I think a lot of it is just accepting that you might just be a little different and that's okay. And just leaning into what feels right to you and just really enjoying those moments.

I feel like you don't get summers to just go back and spend with your family, and that is so precious. And I think part of me, once I was in college just felt like I just have to grind and didn't have time to do that, but the grind never ends. So it's just taking those opportunities and doing those things. It's just so precious in terms of feeling supported. I feel like maybe leaning in and talking to my family more about the difficulty and going back and forth and what that felt like and how do you maintain better communication with your family there and how do you share those worlds rather than keeping them separate. Because I think there was a lot of assumptions of what the world is for me here, what the world is for me there, and I wonder how much folks really understand what that actually looks like. And I feel like that's how you maintain deep, meaningful relationships over time. So I think that's why some of my relationships, I have pretty good relationships with my family, but I think it could always be better. And I think it's because of the distance, but finding ways to let people in is awesome.

 

Michelle:

Yeah, that's such a good point, by the way, about the assumptions that both sides made about the other side, and it's like, well, did no one think to actually check in with Kaylesh to see what she's actually living versus just kind of being like, okay, it must be like this. It must be like that. It's like children may not understand a hundred percent what's going on. They may not have the context for everything, but that doesn't mean it doesn't warrant a conversation. And I definitely, definitely encourage it. There are a couple people, I've invited them on the podcast, they've recorded episodes with me, but their social media, their companies, whatever their brands are dedicated to helping guide parents through that now, because a lot of us are something between Gen X, millennial, even Gen Z, and you have kids and you're basically like, how do I do this?

Because I never had it. And I think that's wonderful because I'm like, I wish I had this too. I wish Before we go, actually one more thing. So Kaylesh is not just an attorney by day, she's also at night, she has a whole Instagram dedicated to incredible creations like culinary creations, but specifically baking, right? I mean, I'm sorry, but I obsessively like all of your cakes and cookie and posts and everything, but it's more than that. Your page is also about how you can really embrace this journey of, can you talk a little bit more about why you even started that page and what it's represented to you?

 

Kaylesh:

Yeah, sure. First, thank you for liking all my videos. I appreciate it. But yeah, I've always just loved creating things. I used to paint a lot, and haven't been doing that as much, but once covid happened, I just started making a bunch of scones and I think I just, I'm very competitive and I just wanted to really perfect that in some way. And so I kept pushing myself to come up with the recipe that I like the best or the system of how to make it, don't give me a soft scone. It has to be crunchy on the outside, soft on the inside. And that's what I wanted and I wanted to get flavor in there. And so I just took off with that. And so since I did that, I would randomly get folks ask me, oh, can you make this for my birthday or can you make this for me?

And especially folks with dietary restrictions, I would make vegan cakes or things like that, but at this point I still did not feel like I was a baker. I love cooking and I like making things, but I didn't feel comfortable to think of myself as a baker. So I feel like over several years I kept just learning more recipes and trying new things, and then people would tell me like, oh my God, that was amazing, or I've never tried that. And so people would start calling me a baker and say like, oh, Kyla just such a good baker. And I think I just kind of fell to that and just started embracing baking more things for people as they wanted. But over, I want to say, so several months ago, my husband and I went through a really difficult loss. We lost our baby boy, which is really sad, and we're still going through that.

And initially I wasn't sure if I wanted to open up and tell people about that in general, but for me, it's always a part of my story, always something that I'll think about all the time. And it's going through that sort of grief is just overwhelming and so hard sometimes you don't want to get out of bed, you don't want to go through your nine to five or whatever you have going on. And so for me, it's like I have so many thoughts in terms of women's health and things in this country, and I know people that have had similar experiences and have struggled. And it wasn't until I posted about what happened to us where folks reached out to me and said, this happened to me as well, or I'm going through this. And for me, I feel like whenever I go through a really difficult time, I try to focus on something else and it's not so that fixes my grief or my loss or makes anything, okay, there is an aspect of my life that will never be okay, and I'm okay with that. I'm okay sitting in that,

But I love just a process of baking. So I decided, you know what? Let me just create a separate Instagram. And I think people think that I'm selling those cakes or taking orders, but that's not the goal of it. The goal of it is literally to post the things I'm baking as I'm going through this to post some motivational messages or things or little reminders here and there. And you'll see a lot of the videos will have cheerful music or things like that. And I try to keep it light because is, I don't know, I don't necessarily want you to see me sobbing or whatever. I want to just be a gentle reminder that, hey, you're not alone. And maybe one day this can be some sort of community. Maybe it's a small community, but maybe you'll see my baking and reach out and we can be friends and support each other through this process. Because for me, it's always a thing. It'll always be there. And I am happy to be comfort in some way and happy to open up and share this because culturally, I have felt that the South Asian community doesn't really talk about this stuff. I don't have as many people that reached out to me or were willing to talk about what happened. I think it maybe makes them more uncomfortable than it makes me, right? Because for me, it won't ever make me uncomfortable because it's my truth.

So the baking page is Thai Kai Bakes, and it's just baking through this journey of grief, and I just hope it touches the right people.

 

Michelle:

It's not just because it's food that I'm loving it, by the way. It's not just because it's you. It's like I see the intentionality you put into, I see how you're creating with the music, with the quotes, with whatever else. It's kind of how I like to approach my social media as well. It's not meant to be there to be like, Hey, flashy, flashy sale mean, yeah, I'm sure if you wanted to honestly sell your stuff, you could, right? But that's not the purpose. The purpose is to represent your truth, your authenticity in the best way, but also to show others that they aren't alone in things that are really, really difficult to work through. I really want to thank you for opening up here also about it, because I know that even if you're on Instagram, it's not something easy to talk about and it's not even if we know each other. It's like that is a strength that I think only a few people can understand showing up consistently and also knowing the role that these things play in your life and in your own your path onwards from here, this is a huge, huge, I know so many people who will probably follow you after we air this episode because of the way that you are that show up. That's all. So thank you again. Thank you for talking about this aspect as well.

 

Kaylesh:

Oh, absolutely. Thank you so much, Michelle. It's awesome following your page. And I'm just excited to follow the other podcasts and it was just so nice chatting with you, and I feel like these are topics and things that people don't bring up as much at dinner, but I think it's awesome to take on these opportunities. Appreciate it. And this is just such an awesome community.