Episode 23:

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Michelle (intro) :

Welcome back to We Cultivate the Pod where we explore the intersections of language, communication, culture, and identity. We are continuing season one with Robin Robin's. Personal journey spans a couple of European countries, but also many different languages, a move to Canada and so much more that she has to share about what it's been like to be someone who has had to live between languages, cultures, and countries. In today's conversation, we talk about what connection looks like across borders, how adaptation is a life skill, and also about her new recently published book that she wrote in honor of her grandmother's story. All right, let's get into it. Here's my conversation with Robin.

 

Robin :

Well, thank you so much for having me. I am a Robin, I'm the founder of our connected world. I basically, I love languages, which is why we are here today to have a chat. I've been traveling all my life, moving country to country all my life, and of course, learning languages I'm now fluent in four has been quite important for my story, for getting me where I even am today here, and also the reason why I founded our connected world in the first place. And yeah, right now I'm sitting in Calgary, Canada, and so this is already international episode.

 

Michelle :

Yeah, exactly. Yeah. So four languages that you said you basically use all the time, right?

 

Robin:

Yeah. Well, the one that I use not as often is probably German, but what I do is I still watch movies or TV shows in all four languages. I feel like I don't want to, especially with German, which the saying is it takes your whole life to learn it, which isn't untrue because it's so different compared to the other three that I speak Italian, Spanish and English. I want to keep it fresh, and I think that's, if you can't speak to people in that language, one of the best things that at least worked for me is just trying to immerse yourself. Even just having that movie, having that TV show reading and exposing yourself to the language as much as you can.

 

Michelle :

Yeah. I'm sort of split on where I want to go first, but I think what would be great is if you could walk us through what got you started, and I mean, maybe you were one of those kids that was just like, I love languages and I'm going to learn really early, but I also assume there's other stuff. There's a whole story behind it. And then I also want to ask you about our connected world and your journey into starting that venture.

 

Robin :

Yeah, so I think how it all started was a bit like I was a kid who loved adventure in general, but I think really what brought me to wanting to learn languages was when I was around maybe 10 more than anything. So I grew up, so I was born in the northeast of Italy, and then at the age of three I moved to Venice with my family, not alone, not by myself, peace out. I'm emancipated, imagine with my family. And to be honest, I genuinely feel like I am more from Venice than the city I was born in because I never really lived. It's just where my parents are from and where I was born hospital wise. But Venice is where I grew up, and I think already in Venice, it's such a particular city. It's a city of merchants. It's a city that it used to be off travelers in a way.

Back in the day, one of the first republics as well, the very first republic in Italy, before Italy was a republic in itself. And I think I was in a way exposed already. We would do a lot of field trips and it would be all this history and art and talking about Marco, Paulo going to China, all this in a way, itchy feet kind of people. And then growing up with, even just from Venice, going back to my hometown for summer and Christmas. So it's always been a bit of a, we're on the go kind of family. And I was reading a lot of adventure books, and I think that's ultimately what I started to do. I remember I was a kid and it was July invent, it's like 40 plus degrees. It was super hot, and I would be wearing a jacket and a hat. I was doing an arctic adventure because, oh, it's following this.

 

Mivhelle :

Oh, that's cute. Yeah.

 

Robin :

And so I think it was always there, but it wasn't until I was a bit older, so around 10. And so that I really started to think about what that meant in practice. So I think the theory has been there from a very early age, but the practice really came through when I was 10. My parents also started to put me in extra English classes because they knew the new English was the way to way thrive as well job wise later on. And so I started doing that and I was like, oh my God, I really like it. And I started, I remember at 10 trying to bubble, wishing to be fluent in English. I was reading just little books. And so I started getting into language learning. Also, the region where I'm from in Italy is actually bilingual German Italian. And so I think that was also something that was maybe more in me, but because I didn't grow up there, it's not something I fully embraced until later on. So I would say English is what kicked off my language love. And slowly when I moved to Germany when I was 12 years old, also with family, that's when I think the pivoting moment happened because it really hit me. It was like whether you speak another language or not.

 

Michelle :

Well, before we go on, can I ask for people who aren't as familiar with not only the geography of Italy, but the different cultural differences between where you grew up and Venice, let's say, how could you describe for someone who's not as, who hasn't been exposed to that part of the world, what you lived, what the differences are?

 

Robin :

So I think the main thing is also an Italian who's been abroad now for quite a while, is Italy is this one thing. Everybody is huge. Families kisses you and it is warm. The reality is that Italy also historically is a very, it's like a bit of a puzzle, and you can really see in a way that the differences between regions, but also I would say between North Center and South Italy due to that history. So in the south we've had the Greeks and the Arabs in the north we had the Nordic, the kind of, I don't want to say invaders at the time, but it was, yeah, I was like, yeah, after the Roman Empire, basically, we had so many different civilization coming to Italy, and then we had, I think one big influence for the north was the Austro-Hungarian empire. And so to me, and Venice is a bit, as I said, a bit of its own history.

One of the first republics, huge, huge, huge merchant city from as long as it kind of lived or was Venice. So I feel like the North is actually culturally speaking slightly closer to center Europe. And I think it is because of that Hungarian, again, food wise and traditions wise, it's not, but people are not, Italians from North are not on average the warmest out of the Italians. When I moved from the north to Sicily, I lived in Sicily for two years. I had a cultural shock because in the South, I would say they are a bit more what the stereotype of Italians are. They have bigger families, they are more traditional. It's again connected to their own history. And also the populations that lived in the South before Italy became Italy until 1861, we were all scattered around Central Italy. I mean strong with the Medici family, Tuscany, where technically Italy was born.

But so it's not just regional, but I would say even just in the three stripes, you already have a bit of a mentality difference within Italy. So when I moved from Venice to Sicily, I was kind of shocked. I was like, everybody's so warm. And in Venice, I wouldn't say that they're not because I mean I was living there, that's all I knew as a reality, but I could really feel the difference. They welcomed me, and it was like the last year of elementary school. So groups were already formed, and I feel if I was anywhere else, it would've been way tougher to integrate if it wasn't that the people were just naturally warmer and friendlier and wanting, but hospitality wise, just on a whole new level.

 

Michelle :

Yeah. And so thank you for walking us through that because I think if I can speak for many people that I know personally and the impression that I don't think it comes from ill will, I think it's, there's kind of this lack of knowledge of Europe outside of the extremely modern times and so many people, I don't think it would be a stretch to say, don't realize that Italy wasn't Italy this entire time in history. It is rather modern. It is. I mean, I would say the same with France, and I love the way that you describe it being a public. I was thinking Republic, I love how you describe it being a puzzle because of the way that it was pieced together as many other European countries have been. It's not like Italy is so special that it's because the whole region was full of people trying to attack each other and trying to take over every two seconds.

So yeah, I mean I agree with the term invaders, but it's kind of funny because I feel like I only laughed because I was like, oh my God, it's so true. Not just like, oh yes, our northern neighbors, but at one point everyone is at war. And that's also how lines were drawn and redrawn over time. And so in the work of WeCultivate overall, but also me personally, I always want to make distinctions. Not to necessarily say that we would always see it with language, but how we think about language and people and culture and different stereotypes and identities, and especially because you are someone who is from the country but moved around in the country before moving out of the country. I do feel that gives you a different perspective.

 

Robin :

I loved what you said, and it's true. That's why I also laughed when I studied here because I was like, but in a way it was right. And yeah, I think you really hit the point there because again, these borders have moved and I actually want to take the region I was born in South world. It is actually so recent and this is why it's bilingual. So 1919 is when it became Italy. So again, this is all war stuff, and as you said, Europe, everybody's close. It wasn't that hard. So whoever had a better army was winning. I mean literally probably the most unified you had the Greek empire, the Roman Empire, probably the biggest ones. And then after it was very scattered. The British Empire was very strong. Again, colonizers, Portugal trying to go around the world. So you're totally right. It's Europe as we know now.

It's totally not how it was until probably the late 1800 also when a lot of other countries unified like Germany, 1871 with Bismarck, so France as well. So again, the borders moved a lot and it really shows you, and I think that's such a maybe more philosophical thing to say how in a way borders are human made and have moved. And some even more recently than we think. For example, the region Ria became Croatia, and then Saudi world became Italy in 1919. That's like my grandparents were born not much after that. And so it really makes you think about how sometimes some people can see where you're from or where they are from. So in a specific way, they're not connected to anything else. And I think one huge gift that traveling or even moving abroad, whether briefly or more permanently like us for example, being an expert really shows you, is actually how much we are indeed connected. Because the history of the world, it is more mixing matching than ever, right? I mean, we've been in way nomads travelers since the very beginning. And then slowly throughout history, we created borders, we created, this is Us, this is you. And E became bigger and bigger and bigger in relation.

 

Michelle :

Yeah, yeah, absolutely. It's just like it's so beautiful to have you here. So I mean, I know we have a lot more to talk about, but I just want to say thank you because you and I have only connected a couple of times because that's the nature of social media and online stuff, and we both are busy, but I just feel like we're about to dive in and I just want to recognize that this is such a gift. So let's see, Venice, Germany, that's where we were. And so Germany, if I have the timeline correctly, around the time you were a teenager.

 

Robin :

Yeah, yeah, you're right. Yeah, I was 12 when I moved to Germany. So very teenager. That was definitely a pivotal moment. Pivotal, but not just puberty things.

 

Michelle :

And also you bring up a good point because that's for many people, adolescence is really when we're trying to get a sense of what our identities are. And you already moved as a child before them, but then you moved to a new country and then you had this realization around language. But do you feel like there were more thoughts catapulting around you just because you're like, oh my God, I'm trying to figure out everything we moved, who am I? All that stuff, or how did that play out?

 

Robin :

Yeah, I think in a way in hindsight, the first year abroad was definitely tough, especially when you're considering, as I mentioned, Sicily, the stereotype of Italians is very much true. People were hagging me and calling me LA and then Frankfurt without speaking German, let's put it that way too. I could understand more than I would speak, but still, I wasn't really full. I was concentrating on English at the time too. And as I mentioned, my family is Italian, even though they grew up in this bilingual region, they spoke German, but it's not that we would speak German in the house at all. So for me, it very wasn't fully new, but at the same time I couldn't communicate it.

So that really added to the cultural shock. I would say it's probably the first one was definitely going from money Sicily, but I think Sicily to Frankfurt was probably the most adaptable I had to become because people were just, yeah, to me, and this is funny, if I go back now, it's totally different. And maybe because also I do speak the language and so I can understand the environment better. But to me it was like nobody's smiling. I've got everything sounded. And Germany, it's funny, and this is I think a great metaphor because I couldn't understand what people were saying. All I could hear was just the tonality of it, which obviously coming from mostly just Italian, it is definitely more aggressive sounding language. And the moment I started to feel different was the moment I started to understand properly German, and then I could tell that there was a joke or a tonality, but without actually understanding the language, it was just a mix of body language being nonverbal language and verbal language being so different, especially after two years in Sicily where just culturally, but also because Frankfurt specifically is, it's a business city. People are on the go. It was one of the biggest cities I had lived in. So a lot to unpack, and this is just from trying to fit in or trying to understand what was going around me. And then on the other side, as you mentioned, you're a teenager, peer pressure, not peer pressure, but trying to be lacked by everybody in a way. And you're trying to form new friendships. And yet now it wasn't just about people already knowing each other and you coming in as the new girl. It was also, I couldn't communicate with 80% of the people. I was in an international school, so they were Italians, and so I would speak to them, but until I actually mastered English, it was really hard.

And I think this is definitely something that shaped me. I am extremely sensitive to if I see somebody on the side or if I know that somebody doesn't speak the language that is spoken in the group, I'm extremely sensitive to it because of that experience of being, you cannot express yourself, you cannot be yourself, you cannot create connections to the level that you want because in a way you keep on feeling like you're weird no matter what you do, because you can't communicate to people and you cannot show how you are. And so I think that was the extra, let's say, challenge while also being just going through a teenager trying to figure out who you want. But because relationships and friendships are so vital, especially during that time, you're more sensitive to it. I feel like when you're uni time or whatever, once you get in your twenties, especially after your thirties, you're like, I don't need everybody to like me. 

 

Michelle :

Oh my God, no. 

 

Robin :

That's not the mentality you have when you're up until probably 19, even to 20. So it really added an extra layer of resilience I had to build, which obviously in hindsight I'm very, very grateful for. I think I really had to learn a lot also too, about myself and about counting on myself and living with my own thoughts in that sense, and finding who I was beyond my language. And I dunno how to describe this, I feel like you 

 

Michelle :

That's so good. Yes, I get it. I know exactly what you mean. 

 

Robin :

I know you get it.

Yes, I'm sure whoever is listening will have a moment to really feel it. But yeah, as we mentioned before, borders and going beyond that, and I think that was probably the greatest gift that came from quite a big challenge, I would say, especially as a 12-year-old the first year until by working a lot. And also thanks to my parents who paid for tutoring after class so that I could really master my English and my sweet English teacher who I would do five out of 10, she just puts a smiley face for motivation, which is funny. Now she was being really nice, but also strict enough that it wasn't like, oh no, you're doing so well. Because I didn't need that. I needed to get my English to a level that I could do. I had a couple of subjects in other languages, sorry, in English, like geography and history.

So I dated English to be good, so I didn't need a teacher who would just tell me I was great at it. So hers, she was strict, but also in a good way, if that makes sense. And I would say thanks to her and thanks to my parents trying to find support, also extra curriculum for me that I finally got English done. And also thanks to two friends that were friends of mine during that period who were open to talking to me and were very kind to me from the get go from when I was not able to speak to them all the way to now I can actually communicate with you and we can hang out. And they were kind to me and trying to speak Italian words to me. They're like, so I think those are the bright memories of it.

 

Michelle :

Yeah, international schools, oh, I never went to one. So I've had a lot of friends who in different countries who did their own versions. Can you describe, you said you did certain subjects in English, and then did you have certain subjects in German or how did it work?

 

Robin :

Yeah, so in this one specifically, it was European, so you had different sections. So it wasn't just English like American school or English school, which you have, especially in bigger cities even. I have a friend who, she went to the British school in Shanghai, so this one was a bit more mixed in languages. So the way it worked is you had four languages. My first one was Italian and my second one was in English. And so you had certain subjects and it would become more and more in your second language.

So if I had chosen German, which some people did because they already were English speakers or French speakers, so their second language was German, then they would do the subjects in German. But for me specifically, it was that, and then I had my third language was obviously German. I had to learn it anyway, and I only had German class in German, so that was it. So English, it's funny, the way I summarize is I learned English in Germany and I learned in England, but it sounds funny, but it's just because I was in an international school.

But yeah, I think also the other kind of cool thing about that was it really pushed me to learn it. And again, it wasn't that I didn't want to or I lacked motivation. It was just a deep learning curve. I was coming from Italian schools where, to be honest, I hope they've changed by now, but at least back in the day when I went back, because from Germany, I went back to Italy, I was like, I think I could do this class. It was really, really bad, and it was only because I was in a linguistic school when I went back to Italy that it was slightly better, but the levels was the cat is on the table, a page and are in the J, and that's it. And then grammar, grammar, grammar and never speaking. And so very steep learning curve to go from that kind of teaching style to okay, you got to speak, you got to survive, you got to understand, and you got to do exams in this language.

 

Michelle :

Yeah, you have to actively participate. You can't just sit there and receive passively the information. Yeah, yeah. I don't know for Italy, I know for France only, so I can't, but if not, we're going to have to do an offline conversation. But I love that. I was going to say that you're reminding me of when you said you learned English in Germany. You're reminding me of a friend I met in France who, she's Spanish, but she came to France to, and everyone's adults, so it's not a school situation. She just came to kind of learn the language, learn about the culture, essentially. It was always kind of a dream of hers. And she left saying, she's like, well, my English improved because she met so many other people and also because she didn't speak any French, so she had to arrive starting from the beginning.

She had a lot of trouble as I think many people do in the country, trying to find people who would talk to her, who would slow down enough to find those moments where she could have language exchange. This wasn't in Paris. So I do think Paris is kind of that exception because larger city, more international. But she found me, she found a couple other people, and of course we weren't going to use French with her because, and at that point we were all still learning ourselves. So she met all these different people and she essentially improved her English through speaking with all these different people in France. And she was like, well, I guess I needed to improve my English anyways, so that's good. And then she left being like, I'm bilingual in the wrong language, but I'm bilingual.

 

Robin :

I love that. Yeah. That's the side effect of experts going, you're probably going to just really improve your English.

 

Michelle :

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Because the most chatty people really like English speakers. I feel well mean. Okay. It depends. 

 

Robin :

Yeah, it depends. But in general, yes. And also it is the one language still that connects so that everybody had as a second language in most countries at some point. And so it is the easiest way. If you have French and Spanish and Italian and American and somebody, I dunno, Singapore or Singapore, you will probably speak English. And that's what happens also in hostels and stuff like that, until sometimes then it's like nationality groups, forms, and then it's like Germans with Germans, French with French, Italians with Italians and Canadian with Canadians. But yeah, in general I would say I saw it with Erasmus students at uni time. It's just a go-to when you're in a bigger group. So yeah, it makes sense.

 

Michelle :

Yeah. Can I ask for your personal opinion on that sort of concept? And it's definitely more a philosophical question, but do you feel like it's a good thing that we have English is what we have now? It could change in the future, but we have this one language that is the international language as many people call it. Do you feel like that's a good thing so that we can communicate better? A lot of people, of course, are worried that their own national languages will be erased and replaced. What's your take?

 

Robin :

I love this question and a hundred percent it can change, right? There's already talks about Mandarin becoming the next English. And I mean statistically speaking, it's probably between Mandarin and Spanish when we look at the amount of population who speaks one full of maybe by French. But it's funny because for example, in Italy, let's take Italy as an example. French was the second language. French is what my grandfather, without going back to many generations, my grandfather, whoever managed to get to until 16 into school would study. So English was not a thing until probably actually the second world war after. So that already is something that changed. And if you look, actually, I would say that there's quite a lot of Italians, especially in the north who are pretty good with French or then move to France and probably their French is better than English.

From an international perspective, my own, first of all, I don't have anything. I like English. As a woman, I'm glad it's something that I can use to speak. I think there's us everything a pro and a con. I think the pro is that it is kind of nice to have a language that you can communicate with people when you're like school or raid when you're in a mixed situation. And I think that's what Esperanto talking about Europe was trying to do, be a bit more mixed, but becoming a language that is a bit slightly more universal, of course, as somebody who travels very handy.

But the con is that, yeah, it can be perceived also as you're giving that power to one specific language. And of course there's native speakers of that language. So in a way, you start looking at it as Canadians, US South Africans, uk, Ireland, Australia, New Zealand, they have this in a way advantage over people. And also because I guess people who I've seen it, you learn, but because you speak English, I feel like you're less motivated until you do move to a country where they're like, no, you got to speak Spanish or French. So I think there's definitely a bit of that feeling. I personally don't have it, but I think it's also because then if I meet somebody who speaks Italian or Spanish or German, then I would move to that language if that makes the person more comfortable, their native language.

I would hope that having a common language doesn't make, and I speak specifically also to when people are traveling and they are in a new country, that because English is the language that people are expected to kind of know, at least it doesn't prevent people from trying to learn the language of wherever they're going. I'm a big advocate that no matter where you're from and what your native language is, if you're going to X, Y, Z country with X, Y, Z language, you should try to have a minimum knowledge or show a bit of effort. And I think that should be just a rule, right? Yes, of course people probably know some English, but there's a lot of different levels that people know English in or are comfortable speaking in English. So being respectful of that and showing or going in with that attitude first I think can help with that feeling of, oh my God, you want me to know your language?

And you expect everybody to just know. And yeah, I think it really comes a bit with that double weapon, like what you do with that power. And I think it's very mixed. I see a lot of people, the ones who travel more, you can really say, okay, they try to speak, they try not to impose English necessarily. But at the same time, I've also seen other people who just go in and overwhelm locals with English and don't notice that maybe somebody is struggling with understanding because maybe their English level is not as high up. And so I think as long as you put respect first, no matter the universal language, whatever the universal language is or is perceived to be, then I think it can be more of a pro than a con. Again, it is a very multifaceted answer

 

Michelle :

It's an interesting, well, thank you. Because I think that is, you touched on so many different points in answering because there is no straight answer. People often feel like it falls in some sort of binary. And I'm like, well, how did you get there? Because most philosophical questions, we don't know what the perfect answer is, and we also don't know how the world will evolve. And I also think your point on travel is so good because now we're talking about different circumstances. We're not talking about whether or not the language is more valid because you can talk to people, you're saying that in certain circumstances you might need a language like this or another one, but at the same time, we have to be aware, especially English native speakers, and it's, oh, it's on the list of things I'm trying to get to. I'm like, I have so many initiatives with where I want to go.

And I will say for myself, but also many people that I know, they aren't aware that they're born into what is essentially linguistic privilege in this day and age. And you don't realize when you travel, because many places and countries in the tourism industry, they might adapt to you because they want to of course do business. They want to welcome in English speaking clientele. That makes sense. But when you are inside of what I'll consider just monolingual, but meaning English only travel experiences, I think unless you speak another language, you don't realize how much this closes you off from other worlds. And you can be in a different country and you can be exposed to different cultures and people, but if you don't learn a little bit on how they're communicating what they're saying, how they're saying much, are you accessing really, how much are you exposing yourself to because you're still locked inside of this one language and that language world idea, I feel like you really have to speak more than one language to understand it. And I do think it's very, very interesting to see what will happen as time goes on, as more children hopefully start to learn different languages but also travel themselves. But I hear everything you're saying also on let's make sure that it goes both ways and it's not just one side.

 

Robin :

And I think you touched on a very important piece and obviously as people in general, I think there's two things. First, I invite anybody to speak a second language, and again, you don't have to be fluent and speak about religion and philosophy in that language, but languages really open your mind because there are a mirror also in different worlds. I think you said it, when you speak another language, you can see different worlds. And I think that's very, very true from a travel experience. If you can connect to the locals and a way to do it is by speaking their language, you will experience the place differently. I can see it, for example, I speak Spanish, so every time I go to Latin America or Spain, I don't know, it's just different. I would go with friends and they know a bit of Spanish and they try and they understand more than they speak.

We connect differently. And then even just seeing my friends doing that effort and playing that effort, then it opens up the other person more because of course they're not going to learn a hundred and whatever, 20 plus 50, no more than that. I don't even know. There's so many. I was like 120, that's the amount of countries. So even more so, I mean India alone has 60 plus different languages, so it's wild. You cannot do that. But I think going both ways where you're like, of course you have your, let's say English as a second language or you have as an English native, whatever, as a second language. Usually it's French or Spanish, I would say most the times. But then having even just those basic words to just show a bit of respect, you can learn, thank you in all the languages if you wanted to, or at least shorter memory.

You can learn it and remember it for the time being that you're in that country, but especially if you're staying in that country for longer, which in a way hopefully you do. So more like slow travel to really get to know a country a bit more in depth, then a hundred percent, in my opinion, you should put some effort interconnected with logos, with the language. Again, some languages are harder than others. A lot of people also, if they speak English or they see a struggle, they will switch to English. But I think it's just almost like a gesture of respect to try in Holland. Oh my god, I try again. I studied in Holland, I don't count it as a language because again, I'm not fluent fluent in it, but I understand it, I write it, I'm very basic with it. And then I would speak and then I was like, oh my god, your is so cute.

And then they switch to English because they're so good at English. Like Scandinavian countries, they're born bilingual, but at least minimum. And then the switch to, so again, if that opens the conversation in a different way than the expectation that the other person is fluent in English. So yeah, it's definitely tricky. And as you said, it also depends maybe on the experience that you want. Do you want to see multiple worlds? Do you want to connect? Do you want to immerse or is it just a one week out of your, so I think people have different approaches to it, but in general, put respect first, show some effort that you want to connect with people, and I think that goes a long way no matter what language you're using.

 

Michelle :

Yeah, yeah, absolutely. I want to go back to your journey inside of your studies. Well, we're still there, but I heard you say that you studied linguistics or you were in a linguistic school.

Would you like to share? 

 

Robin :

Yeah, when I went back to Italy, I did a linguistic high school, and the only reason why it's called like that is because you have four languages instead of two. The high school in Italy works a bit different. I don't want to bore everybody with the educational system of Italy. But yeah, so I went back and because I was coming from finally having three languages under my belt, I didn't want to lose that. And so linguistic high school is basically you have four instead of only two, but also you're doing literature connected to it. So I did Italian, German, Spanish and English literature, and that's probably my more linguistic side of things. I loved it and I think it was very fitting. I feel like even just learning about literature when you learn, so not just the grammar and talking in the language, but you really get, as we said, you get a level.

I would say even deeper literature showed me a lot more in depth, like the history, the culture, the different phases of those specific countries. And I mean it's a lot of countries. I would go through all of, I mean obviously Italy, but I learned way more I feel about UK, Ireland, and then from Spanish, it was not only Spain or the Iberian Peninsula, it was also the Latin America. And that was my first peak as a 17, 18-year-old. I did it for one or two years only because you add the first language later, but whatever. And I did only literature and it was my first peak in Latin America. And I think that's actually what started to get me into, I don't really want to go there and how different it was. So of course it wasn't everything, but I felt that by adding literature during my linguistic high school time, I went a level deeper into the culture behind the languages.

 

Michelle:

Yeah, yeah. I'm sorry, we might have to go and you might have to explain Italian high school. So just because I know you're like, okay, just brush past it, but I actually think many of us might need it. So when you say you did four languages, so I assume it's a model where your high school focuses on those four languages, and is it about the languages or is it because you did classes in those languages in your international school? But this sounds like it was more language and literature for those four.

 

Robin:

Yeah, no, you're right. So everything was in Italian minus German class, Spanish class, English class.

But it wasn't an international school, it was an Italian high school. So the way it works in Italy is you have elementary, middle, and high school. So elementary I think that's pretty standard five years. Then middle school is three years, so you're about 13, 14 when you get out of there and then you graduate around 18, 19 depending on when your birthday is. But the way it works so quite differently from for example, even Germany, which is the other one I can talk about because I lived there. I don't want to talk about everybody's educational system. I dunno it as in detail as these two countries. But the way it works is you decide all throughout you decide which school you want to go to. And the main choices for high school is do you want to do something a bit more, let's say practical kind of trade jobs.

So you can go, we call those professional high schools. So you'll learn how to be a Ian, an electrician, a mechanic, and those things because it has a bit of more hands-on side to it as well, or che, it comes from Latin high school, that's more, yeah, you can choose. There's scientific, humanistic and linguistic. Mostly these are the three. And the main difference is the subjects that you have throughout. So it's coming from an international school where I could literally choose my own schedule. This was different. You're not necessarily choosing your schedule, how many hours of math, you're not building your schedule, it's kind of given to you. But by choosing scientific or humanistic or linguistic, you have a foundation of what you're doing more. So linguistics simply meant that you're adding two languages. So you're going to have throughout the week more language slash literature class, and then you're going to have a bit less of, you're still doing everything. You have a bit less of physics, chemistry, math and history of arts, for example. So you only get two hours a week of history of art and four hours a week of math. So the scientific is still there, but it's just not taking as many hours per week as an example.

 

Michelle:

Yeah, it sounds almost like you have to specialize or you choose your, it's not a major, but it's what I'm tempted to say, right?

 

Robin:

It is from even how it works in I also, not in North America or in English speaking countries, it is a major in a way. And so it's just less of build your own schedule, I feel, compared to when I was in international school, I was like, okay, I want to do, we called it hard math, which just meant two extra hours. So I did that in international school. I was like, I dunno why I did that, but I did I guess. But yeah, I was always more of a humanistic subject perhaps. But in Italy, what I do, I mean I hope it's still there again, I'm talking, but there's been quite a lot of changes. I'm pretty sure, for example, history of art has been taking off or it's not mandatory anymore, which is interesting. But what I do like about the Italian high school is that no matter what major you have, you will still have a bit of every language. So it's not because you're having scientific or a humanistic high school major that you are not doing anything of the other stuff. You still have a bit. So in a way, I felt that it was helpful because it's, for example, history of art. I dunno why everybody was

Right. And I dunno, it's one of those classes where everybody just gets distracted. Why are we here? All the paintings. It's so funny because I'm like, I am so glad I had it whether I wanted it or not because it's so great knowledge and especially now traveling and then I recognize paintings and I'm like, oh my God, having this random memories from high school, even though it's study the day before then having had e xam. And it's like I am glad. And especially coming from a very art-focused country, whether you like it or not, I think it was very, very good. And if I didn't have it by default, I probably wouldn't have chosen it. I would've chosen maybe something else or added another language maybe. So yeah, I think in a way it's great and every high school in Italy, and I think that's a big difference. No matter what you choose, you have Latin, which I absolutely did not. I liked literature, but I did not Latin. It was also really, really higher level than I had ever done. So it was, again, I went from learning English as the learning curve to Latin

That language. But at the same time, again, I was like, that was my least favorite out of all of them. I was like, oh my god, I was really struggling with Latin. But it's a default. All the high schools initially have it because Italian was born and stuff. And what I would say was a good takeaway from it, it actually helped me a lot with German because of all the cases that you have and it is a bit of a window in some even Eastern European languages with all the declinations. So again, would I have chosen it? Never, never, never, never. But I think, and I hope that the educational system in Italy keeps that where it's like you still have a bit of everything so that you do come out of high school with still that general knowledge that will help you no matter then what you choose to specialize in.

 

Michelle:

Yeah. So I wanted to highlight that. Thank you for walking us through. I know you're like, it's not necessary. 

 

Robin:

I love to talk about educational systems.

 

Michelle:

It's actually not boring because for two reasons. The first, I feel that many people believe that European countries work the same. And so they're like, oh yeah, my friend in Sweden or my friend in Germany or whatever, my friend's kid and whatever other name, another European country. And it's like, no, but it's different countries. So they have different education systems. There are certain similarities because for instance, they're mostly all public education systems sponsored by the state. So that's a difference. We have a whole 50 state system that's a mess. So we just put that all aside. But I also think the second reason is that you're saying it depends on when you were in school. So you're saying, yeah, I went to school at this time, but it may not be the requirement anymore or it may not be the case. And I just also think sometimes references are just so outdated when I hear people talking about them, they'll be like, yeah, so-and-so's grandfather from Italy didn't have to do physics. So clearly in Italy they don't teach physics. And I'm like, you guys don't, you think that countries can make changes and implement them? So I do think while you're like, oh, it might be boring, I actually think it's very illuminating for many people who aren't familiar, not only with this part of the world, but with parts of the world that they don't call home. I don't think it's specific to Europe. I think it's how we need to be thinking about countries in general.

Robin:

Yeah, a hundred percent. And I think it's very true, and Europe is very different. And I want to say that one thing that I kind of tell my US friends is look at Europe, the way you look at the 50 states, every state, you have a federal level and then you have a state level that's Europe, but with even more historical differences.

Michelle:

Now, let's imagine all the states used to be its own puzzle, but scattered, and then the borders were all different, and then they all tried to attack each other and each one had a different language and then Yeah, exactly,

 

Robin:

Exactly, exactly. Add a lot more layers.

But that's when I try to explain it to people, it is so different. And that's why I kind of know probably Spanish, German, Dutch and English as in from England a bit more, but probably the only two that I know the most is Italy and Germany, just because I was living there. I know that the system works similarly, but again, education is part of the educational programs under different prime ministers and different politics. So yes, it a hundred percent will always change. So if education minister decides to pretty sure that, don't quote me on this one, I'll have to Google it. I'm pretty sure they took off history of art as mandatory. I remember hearing the news and being like, oh my God, friends, oh, can you imagine? And feeling a bit sad that they did that actually, because it's one of those things that I don't think are mandatory anywhere that I know of. It's always a choice of subject, but I actually feel like it can teach a lot and can be so interesting when you travel. But yeah,

 

Michelle:

Maybe you can go put it back. Maybe you can

 

Robin:

Sorry guys, I'm back. I'm back now. 

 

Michelle:

Yeah, I know. Outside of the country I settled. I know. And liked me and liked me. 

 

Robin:

I would love that education minister. I would like that. I think that would be fun.

Yeah. Maybe more complicated. I'm imagining this is a magical parallel world where it's so easy. Yay. Education.

 

Michelle:

I actually think it's, well, it's complex because systems but complex because people, and so when you have so many political interests inside of every government,

 

Robin:

Definitely yes. I am in a wish world right now, I'm like, yeah, education ministry. I love it.

 

Michelle

I know, I know. And we all blame our education systems. I think that's the universal,

 

Robin:

Actually that's very true.

Michelle:

Pain. We're like, it doesn't matter where you came from. Although I will say we often see that wherever we were educated was bad. And then another country, it doesn't matter the country, it doesn't matter if it's true even, it's like, oh, it's better over there. And it's like the grass. Exactly. Will we always, no matter what reform is made. Okay, again, topic may be for a different time. We are on a schedule today, so we have to get going, but I want to turn us to, alright, so now you're in Canada and so in your storyline, how did you get to Canada? How did you, and is that also where you started your business?

 

Robin:

I started in Canada, so yeah, it was during COVID, so I was in Canada literally right before COVID hit. Well, basically after my master's I went back to Italy briefly, maybe like seven months to save money to leave again. Basically that was the plan.

But it was kind of nice to be back for a little bit as older after uni years person. And then I did a working holiday visa for Canada. So I had about a year before my visa expired and that was Mees tipping the toes, however the saying goes into the Canadian ward and it was actually the first time they were cold, you know what I mean? So it was actually the first time that I had to leave a country, not by choice. Every other time it was I was kind of ready or I kind of knew this one hit where I was like I was really trying to stay and it just didn't work. So I had to return to Europe for a little bit and I worked in Europe for about a year, year and a half. And then I came back and I came back and the rest is history.

I have moved in between. So I was in the east coast before and now I'm in the west coast as a base. I mean still traveling and that part I don't think ever will ever end's just having a base. And I would say probably because of COVID as well, I have definitely come down. So I would say it was way more nomadic previously, always on the go, always with my carry on, living out of luggages. And I would say probably in the past four years or so, it's been more of having a base, I wouldn't say fully settled down, I mean the future, what the future holds. I don't know, it could be two, three years, who knows. But definitely a bit more settled as a general word with more of a base and then traveling from the base and having furniture.

So in general, I think I wanted to follow this down and I had this old working holiday, first working holiday in Canada, then working holiday in Australia and that was my plan. And then life decided differently instead of leaving, I was like, I have only one year visa, I may as well use all of it. So I actually sit for the winter season. I worked at a ski resort and it was amazing. I don't regret any of it. I think sometimes you have an idea and then you got to be flexible to change your plan and everything. I really believe everything works out in the best way possible as long as you put your heart into it and you act in the way you feel aligned in the moment.

I think people often think that they need to act in a way that feels aligned in 10 years time. That philosophy of life, because I think there's so many variables that can change and you dunno what you want in 10 years. There's one thing that we don't have as humans is a crystal ball to know the future. So the best you can do is always act with what, maybe six months time for certain goals. When it's also more bureaucratic, it may take a bit longer citizenship visa, you need to plan that a bit more ahead. But I genuinely feel that bringing it more to you now and more short-term goals as much as you can really keeps you on the right path or what at least you won't regret.

Michelle:

Yeah, yeah. I've had to learn this as well. I used to be a huge planner and a huge, not necessarily five and 10 year plans, but I would have multiple different variations of the different plans and how everything would work together. And it drove me a little bit crazy for about 10 years or more actually. But I do think that something that I realized along the way because I kept changing, I kept evolving and I was like, how do I plan if I don't even know what's going to happen next year? I don't even realize how much I am different. And I saw something the other day that was like, why are you planning for a version of yourself that hasn't existed yet? And I'm like, yeah, why are we doing that? I do think it's a modern society kind of optimization problem. I don't really think it's just one country or culture.

I think a lot of times we're told you need to do X, Y, Z by this time also be very pragmatic, which is good. You do need to be pragmatic about things. And I do think it's about ambition and if you want to target even immigration or something, you want to target that country, great. But also what if you go there and you don't like it and then you've spent three years planning for something that you're not going to enjoy or what if you meet someone? Okay, I met my current husband, I met my partner, I couldn't have expected this. I now have this whole other aspect of my life that I couldn't account for and I am very grateful that I did learn this lesson eventually. It's hard to turn off though, I think because wanting to, you're so future minded and I've learned to leverage it for the good. So I'm like that makes me able to plan things out and also have, yeah, I still have backup plans, I still have all this, but it's archived. I don't need to act on it necessarily.

 

Robin :

Yeah, yeah. I love what you said and I love that. Again, it leaves room to the unexpected. You dunno when you meet your partner and obviously when you know meet the partner that you want to stick around with

More long-term, it changes your plans whether you want or not because then you're thinking about both of you. And unless you really have a strong, I want to go here, I want to do that. And that is the reason why the paths divide your future then is accounting for another person. And even more so now, obviously it's a long-term relationship, obviously you want to do things together at that point where you're like, this is also our goals and stuff. And so I loved what you said where you like, I leverage it for the good because it's not necessarily bad to plan. I think having goals ambitious, like reach for the planets, do it. Please do. And it's dream and act big a hundred percent. But I think sometimes it's just about the con of it is putting pressure on points that don't need pressure. And so I love that you said that some of it, like your archives.

So one thing that I found has helped me or also has helped people I've worked with or talked to is I generally like to work with the 12 months spectrum. I think it's enough time to kind of know what may happen or where you may be, but also it gives you that flexibility. So 12 months goes and then reverse engineer from that and then concentrate on those small milestones that you need. If things move, that's okay too. I genuinely am a believer that sometimes we have this pressure, oh my god, I have to do this and I have to achieve this by this time. Then things happen in a way, and then it's like it happened maybe one year later, but guess what? That was a better time.

And so planning is good. Setting goals, absolutely mood boards, any of those, visualize it, but it cannot all be important at the same exact time. And so I think by, in a way, also choosing top two, top three more shorter term and acting as that version. I love that you said, why am I planning for a version of myself that is not there yet? And so you're acting, I would say even more aligned just by default because you have shorter term and it's also making it then more possible and more comfortable, I guess, in a way, which means then you get to the goal, which means that's going to be more rewarding and it keeps you, so yeah, again, as a lot of things, pros and cons, it can be like a double-sided weapon where it's putting a lot of pressure and then you're overwhelmed and then you give up, right?

 

Michelle:

Yeah. Or you've put on all this work and you're like, it's not aligned at all because it's aligned to that past version of you, which great for her, but I'm not there anymore.

 

Robin:

Exactly, exactly. So yeah, keeping it closer. And I think that's what comes out of mindfulness, meditation, visualization, journaling, or any of those practices really, really can help with setting more still ambitious goals, but more that you can actually control and act upon. Because again, a goal can be a goal, but if you don't act on it, it's just going to stay a goal. Good idea.

 

Michelle:

I'm wondering if you can talk a little bit about, and this is totally not related to the same topic by the way, so I'm just trying to make sure we don't run out of time. Other people seeing you making a value-based evaluation in a way that doesn't align with who you are, simply because you present as someone that they want to put in a box or a category in their heads. That is the most complicated way I could ask this question. Basically, are you judged internationally? Look at me trying to put in diplomatic language. Are you judged internationally? And can you also talk to us about how those have played out?

 

Robin:

Yeah. And you mean judged because I speak the languages or judge when I speak in a language?

 

Michelle:

Both. Yeah,

 

Robin:

Both. Yeah. No, I got you. I got you. Yeah, definitely. So I mean, luckily I guess for me, speaking for languages has opened more doors than closed. I think in general, people react pretty well to it. I think it's given me a toolbox that is invaluable because again, I can connect if somebody is like, oh, I'm Spanish. Like, oh my God, we speak Spanish, and then you're just immediately those walls go down and you're so opening up to each other. And so far I would say the majority is always appreciating that I'm trying to speak the language, or even sometimes even in English, sometimes I get very Italian about things and then, or I'm translate, like this saying is so good in Italian, it doesn't exist in English as all my friends would laugh about it, but never from ill will. It's just like this just Robin just came up and then they love it. They're like, oh my god, is that I say it in Italian. So I would say in general, it's been more positive judgment than negative. And this is my saying, it's not an Italian saying is that, and I'm going to censor the word because it's a where that's okay, we can swear,

 

Michelle:

Especially if it's in a different

 

Robin:

Language. So bad people, negative judgmental people or a you can complete the bed is a personality and not a nationality. So the times I've, whether lived it where people get impatient or they absolutely don't care that you speak other languages, they're just focused like, oh my god, you don't speak a politician level in X, Y, Z, Germans, Spanish, oh my God. Or they get impatient or they don't understand that maybe at some point you're struggling with understanding or you're struggling with expressing yourself because it's not your first language.

And so I've encountered that on myself, on other people, but a hundred percent it was always a situation of the person and their personality and their narrowmindedness. So in general, I would say 80 to 90% it's been positive judgment. I would say even more like people being like, oh my God, you must be smart when you say I studied law, I speak for languages are like you must miss. I think that's probably the funniest part where you can get a label but a positive one, not a negative one. Which I mean, can it be true maybe, right. I think it's not just because of languages though. I'm going rate my intelligence. I can maybe speak two languages and still have no other knowledge on anything else. So it's a part of intelligence for sure. But yeah, I think that's probably the funniest positive comment that you get just when you say that and a reaction that you get from people similar to other, let's say more academic, educational, maybe titles that you may have so comparable to that, but from the negative side, a hundred percent I've seen, yeah, racism, I don't know how else to put it.

More on the racist side of comments and you can tell when there's a difference when it's like a joke or I joke about it too. I joke about my favorite thing, and this is not, I think it was a meme where it's like when you become bilingual, it's like ba, it's so cute. Even in Italian sometimes I'm talking to my parents and the other day I was explaining something and I had the word injury and I was like, it took me so long. I feel it's injury is in your bones, so that's a different word. I was thinking about Pilates and how it's good if you have an injury. And so feta is more like a wound than an injury struggling. And my parents, we lost a daughter, but there's some side effects for sure of knowing multiple languages and then you're like, oh my god, I need to be in the zone for each. And sometimes when you're switch in between, you feel like you're absolutely not smart way that way you're like, I'm missing words. And sometimes, which is altogether and you're like, Nope, I have four options and none of them are coming up for this word.

 

Michelle:

I don't know for how it feels in my head. I feel like there's only one you're driving and there's only one lane. And sometimes I feel like the words are coming from, so I have three. So basically they're coming from three different lanes, but they're trying to merge into one, but they're getting all stuck trying to get into that one. And I'm c yeah, I'm just literally, it's just no expression, just silence. And I'm like, give me a moment, give a moment. It'll come

 

Robin:

A hundred percent. That's a great absolute collision. What do I do? So again, the side effect and then you have people reacting to that being mean or making fun of you for choosing the wrong, I hate that you meant this. Yeah, I guess I did. Sorry for choosing a word that wasn't the perfect match in this case. And I

 

Michelle:

Still as if these people by the way, choose the right words all the time in their lives as if they always speak perfectly, right?

 

Robin:

A hundred percent. And yeah, again, it's people who are also just, again, when you learn language, when you enter different worlds, when you move, when you travel, you learn to have more empathy.

And so you can really, really tell when somebody was just never in the position of trying to put themselves in somebody else's shoes and it's their way and their only way and they are here and everybody else. So again, personality, it's universal. I say from Indonesia all the way to Los Angeles map wise, when know the world is round, but it's sounds guys, it's not fly anyway. So map wise, the 2D map wise, I've seen it everywhere. And it's always connected to experience, environment, mentality of the person and never where they're from because in general, again, I've traveled quite extensively, not everywhere, there's always more to go, but I have met way more people on the kind side open, wanting to help, wanting to teach you about their culture, about the tradition, about the world. And that's something beautiful. I dunno, maybe I'm lucky, I dunno what to say. But in general, traveling has showed me that. And then of course the percentage of shitty people, it's the nicet word. I could find shitty people, and I've seen it in any country from Italy to even Canada, even though they're majority just very nice. As the stereotype goes, they are.

So yeah, again, going back to the beginning of our conversation about borders and history and cultures and how we have put those borders. I think by learning languages as well as travel, you're starting to remove those in the sense of like, oh my God, this is it. And really starting to see the world more on what is connecting as humans, as countries, as people, as cultures, as histories versus not. And really concentrating on that. And I think that's why, I mean, psychologically speaking, I love to go about travel psychology, but travel brings more empathy, more creativity because it puts you in these environments where you have to adapt, you have to learn, you're put in certain situations where those soft skills need to come out, and that's why I invite everybody to always travel, move, try to learn a language, because it does open those worlds and it literally, literally changes your neuropathways, and that's why you're never going to see the world the same way as before.

 

Michelle:

Yeah, yeah. I need to invite you back to have a whole psychology neuroscience episode, but I also

 

Robin:

Want to, there's so many side conversations we need to have.

 

Michelle:

I know. I know you're going to be a recurring guest. Okay, this is just smart one. You have this bilingual book. Can you tell us a little about this?

 

Robin:

Yeah, so actually the whole our connected world, which is now my business actually, I started off as a podcast host and author. It was COVID was missing talking to people and strangers and listening to people's stories.

It doesn't exist anymore, the podcast, but it was a great, I did it for one year until basically being resumed again. Then I concentrated on my language courses and stuff like that. So priorities, again, you can have a lot of goals, but sometimes you only have 12 hours a day to do that. So I started writing and I had a lot of short stories. One thing I do is when I'm in airports, when I'm traveling, I write so much and they're not necessarily connected to each other. So I started looking at everything that I had written in my notebook and I was like, okay, I want to have my, I'm working on a novel and that's my bigger project, but I was like, I want this and I want this to be in a way, another tool for people to learn a language. I think a great thing is reading is a great, from the pillars of learning language is a great way to really take a moment to go in depth.

You can analyze, I've learned so much vocabulary just by reading you highlight so you can really be a great activity to do, to go more in depth and expand your vocabulary. And so I was like, okay, I want this. I created these two characters. One is just a modern kind of girl traveling and it's more about travel experiences and introspection, stories about that. And then the other character is actually based on my grandma. And so it's like a younger girl in her twenties after the second world war in Italy. And she would always tell me this crazy story. She was the first, she ended up on the newspaper for being the first woman in jeans on a motorbike at the time.

She was born in 1932 or something like 35, literally during the war, that's when she was born. So she had these amazing stories and I wanted to give a bit of a tribute to that. And so it is fiction, but Henrietta, her character is a hundred percent based on my grandma with fictionalized elements. And so this short story collection was born. I translated into Spanish because especially I feel that's a language that can help you travel as well more than Italian. I love Italian, but it's only spoken in Italy. I wanted it be helpful. And the reason why I'm republishing it is because I'm adding a couple of stories now and I'm also adding a section to really go more into depth on the language side of things, again, it's like a leisure book, but the idea behind it was it can be that extra tool that you can do Duolingo if you want to. You can also read a book and it's digital and stuff. So yeah, that's why I'm republishing it COVID project going a bit bigger this time, 25.

 

Michelle:

I love that. I love also that I think it's so special when you can take stories that are essentially nonfiction, but then you kind of add in these fictional characters to kind of help bring it to life. And I just think that's so cool. I can't wait to see it. I will be picking up a copy. I mean picking up, I will be clicking and downloading. I don't know how it works.

 

Robin:

A coffee mean I wish it wasn't a book, but I think it would be digital's

Digital stores. Yeah, I know. Again, fiction I think is, I like writing fiction more because as you said, it gives you a bit more freedom to change. So if I want a certain message to go, then I can add to it. But the inspiration, again, my grandma was very close to my grandma of course growing up, but her stories are something that from my grandparents are something that I will never forget, and part of me is they didn't get the chance to share it with the world, but I can in English. And so that's kind of maybe a second reason behind why I wanted to share her stories

 

Michelle:

Too. I love when I see that it's younger people who had this connection to their grandparents, but also they lived during a time that doesn't exist anymore. And it's exactly as you said, they didn't have technology and social media and all these other things to help share their stories, and they have incredible stories that they passed down.

 

Robin:

Yeah, a hundred percent. You got it.

 

Michelle:

I want to wrap up with maybe any advice you would give people, because you do have your language courses, but also you have lived what it means to be multilingual, and also we talk about the judgments thing. What would you tell people who are not necessarily struggling with the language but struggling with what it means to welcome in a new language into themselves?

 

Robin:

I think the first thing that came to mind as you asked that is don't be too harsh on yourself. I think a big blocker, I had it too, but a big blocker that I see people or around me or students is you want to sound perfect and write perfect, and you expect from the get go within your language to be at the level of your native language. And that puts a tremendous pressure, and as we said before, you trying to speak a language in front of somebody who's native is going to actually build a deeper relationship with the person and show respect before somebody mocking you. If they mock you, they're part of the second it people that we talked about, personality, non nationality. So I think really the main blocker that I see is sometimes your own critical self and pressure and setting expectations that are not realistic.

So even in my journey, I remember going to the movies in English, they do that in Germany, and I would go and I would come out of the movie and I would go with my family and I would be like, I understood 50% of it and then I would go again and as slowly it was like until I got to 80%, which for me was like, oh my God, that's actually really good. I mean, even now I would say my English is pretty good. I can handle it. I work in it. I use it all the time. I mean, I live in an English speaking country now too. I speak English every day yet do I know all the words? No, probably not even in Italian. And so expecting that I should never be surprised by a new word or the meaning or the usage of that word in that different context is very unrealistic.

So even when you get to an advanced stage of the language, there's always more to learn. It's almost like you really see it as a continuous journey. It's like you're trying to travel across the whole world to every single country. There's always more, always new nuances. I'm also writers. There's so much more I can do with my writing, and I think to be honest, it's more of the beauty of it of that you're always evolving and reaching new levels and new progress, but you can always get more out of it if you want to stop because you just want to travel to the country and you want to have just, I want to be able to have a conversation that's a different goal and you can achieve it, but don't from the get go, put expectations on yourself that are just adding pressure or making you not speak, not write and panic when you're listening and you're not understanding every single word the person says.

One huge thing, and maybe this is 0.2 and I'll leave it at that, is connected to this where it's like one big scale, and I don't know if this is talked about enough, when you're a beginner in a language, is absolutely managing to understand and handle a conversation just by understanding whatever, let's say 40% and you can put it together and understand the context of it and having almost like you're developing almost a scale of putting together the clues that you have to understand the bigger picture so you're not understanding the detail of everything. You don't have that skill yet, but you're able to combine the information enough that you can handle the conversation and you can have a response as basic as it can be depending on the level. And I think this is a scale that is all talked about enough, and I always tell the students, it's like, I don't need you to understand a hundred percent of this text, a hundred percent of what I'm saying to you right now. I need you to be able to respond and feel comfortable with not understanding everything because it's going to take you a while until you do, and as soon as you get comfortable with being uncomfortable in that sense, it's like a workout. Just get comfortable with the sweat, get comfortable with the muscles burning. The more you just keep on progressing and that's going to be inevitable. The more you practice, the more you learn, the more you stay open to mistakes and so on, the faster you're going to learn that language.

 

Michelle:

I love those and I echo for sure the part about being comfortable, being uncomfortable, because I think a lot of people think it's kind of cliche. It's kind of like, oh no, I'm okay. I'm tough. I, I'm vice president of blah, blah, blah. In my company, I have this big job, big house, big car, whatever stuff. I am so good. I can handle language. It is a psychological game. It is about how you're managing and also welcoming. Welcoming such a passive word really for this, it is how you are managing to incorporate new information, and we're going to, I mean, hopefully in the future, talk more with each other, but I agree it's a lot of, I call it pattern recognition. I call it kind of taking, like you said, the individual pieces. How can you weave them together without knowing what the gaps are yet? Just pick up on those things first and then you can build from there. Otherwise, what are you building? What are you building on? Right? There's no foundation.

 

Robin:

Amen. That's it. Amen. That's exactly what I meant.

 

Michelle:

I am going to wrap it up here completely. Thank you so much for sitting down with me today and spending a little bit longer than a little bit of your time. Where can people find you?

 

Robin:

Instagram obvious nowadays at Ocw Academy? I'm there. I'm in the dm, so you can write me at any point in time. And then also our connected world, do ca, that's my website, so probably those two are the best places to get in contact.

 

Michelle (outro):

I hope you enjoyed this episode of We Cultivate the Pod. Make sure to subscribe here and wherever you get your podcasts so you can catch new episodes as they become available. I also share after the mic reflections on Substack, the place where I dive into the themes that stay with me long after recording beginning in 2026. You can also find additional bonus content from guests and other, we cultivate extras, subscribe for free to the communication shift on substack. The link is in the show notes and in this description. Thank you so much for joining us this time and I will see you in the next episode.