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Michelle:
Let's get started. So today I just want to, well, I have so many things I want to talk to you about, but why don't we have you introduce yourself and then we'll get into all of it.
Kax:
Sure. I'm so excited for this, so hello everybody. My name is Kax. I'm originally from Philippines and I moved to Barcelona 10 years ago, almost 10 years ago, sometime in 2015. So I moved here for work, as most people do, and then I just forgot to go home. I enjoyed living here so much. Like, oh yeah, I'm from Philippines, maybe I should go back. Oh my God, nevermind. I used to work corporate tech. I worked product management, then became product leader. But up until last year when I burned out and burned all ties with corporate life, I decided to focus on my own startup. It's called Magical Audios. We build guided self-hypnosis audios to help women feel better. So it's a very broad term because we're trying to solve a very broad problem. And I also do coaching, career coaching support for women in tech.
Michelle:
Which I can't remember if that's how we connected. I remember, I know it was online on social media, but I don't remember exactly what the post was or something. I think it was something UX related or women related. It was something women in tech related or I can’t remember.
Kax:
No, no, no. I remember, I remember I was on ranting about how much I hate selling my services online. And you were one of the first people. Me too.
Michelle:
Yeah. Yeah. Okay, wait, hold on. And then this is where we thought that we would do a spreadsheet we still haven't done, but yeah, we thought we would get a database of different coaches or trainers that might get, I do think this is a really good idea to have more people meet other people who kind of have that same philosophy, working philosophy, but yeah, it'll take time to create and not neither of us has the bandwidth at the moment.
Kax:
So many things happened in between.
Michelle:
Yes, yes. Yeah. That's how we connected. That is my favorite part of social media is meeting people like you, because I hate, I think every other aspect of it, in my honest, I really think that it is. A lot of people say this, it's a double-edged sword. You have to do it because you need to put yourself out there. At the same time, everyone's like, oh God, I have to put myself out there. Yeah, I have to sell my services. I have to, if anything, I think people who have very mission-based and focused type of work, meaning we're not just here to be like, we have the best, I don't know, bagel, come eat. This is amazing bagel, we created it. It's more like change focused or nurturing, supportive. This type of sphere is very complicated, I feel, to deal with the superficiality of social media.
Kax:
Honestly, what gives me cringe or what makes me feel awkward is when I try to follow the rules as in, you need to have a great hook. You need to talk about this. You need to embody the message. And I'm like, what does that even mean? So whenever I go down that route, because that's what people say is this is how you will sell, it just doesn't feel natural. I don't even know what words to put together to make it sound like whatever it is that people say, this is how you should sound like. So if I go down that path cannot, it feels good in my belly. So if I go the other route, which is, look, this is who I'm, this is what I've done, these are all of the shit that I've been through. And then it feels so much easier and I find out it actually works so much better as well.
Michelle:
I know you're all about this because you have your motto, your slogan that I see all the time is build what feels good, right? The, yeah. So do you want to talk about that? I love that.
Kax:
I don't even remember how I got there. I think I was very inspired by what's her face, the yoga girl who got super popular during pandemic, find what feels good. She says it all the time
Michelle:
Oh something, Adrian. Okay. Yeah. I never followed her , but yeah, I see
Kax:
Her and I remember thinking, because everybody's like, they'll just follow what feels good because they kind of equate it to what's the easy route. But then for me, I was like, no, it doesn't, half of the things that make me feel good are actually freaking hard, but they make me feel good because I'm interested in them. So for example, my first public speaking stand, I just signed up for call for speakers randomly, didn't even think about it just because, Ooh, this sounds interesting. Lemme see if I'm going to get in. I'll figure it out later. I just want to talk about how and product management frameworks are bullshit or best practices are bullshit. And that was my soap soapbox a while ago, and it made me feel good to talk about it because I know that was my pain point at that time. And a lot of people I knew agreed with me as well.
And then the weeks and the days leading up to that actual event, it was terrible. I was having anxiety attacks and I was like, what the hell did I sign up for? But at the end of the day, that whole thing, that whole experience made me feel good. And I've been following a similar philosophy since then. If you ask me what do I think I will be in 10 years from now, I cannot answer that. I have never had an answer for this question. I have never been the person who's like, I will be a CPO. I'll be an entrepreneur. I didn't even think I would be an entrepreneur two years ago.
Michelle:
Exactly.
Kax:
But my path has always been, am I interested in this? Bring me joy. Does this let me exercise the things that light me up and that that's my definition of what. So for me, this has also been the philosophy now that I'm bringing with my coaching with the startup that I'm doing. I could build a B2B SaaS, whatever, and it's going to bring me shit loads of money faster probably, or investment investors knocking at our door. But I kind of ended up choosing a harder path, which is guided self hypnosis. The question I always get, what the fuck is that? What it's, it's such a huge work trying to talk to people about it, convincing them that safe or coaching that, you know what? It's okay if you don't run after the job title. You’re going to get it anyway. And also convincing people to pay for it, that doesn't feel good, but the mission itself, it feels good.
Michelle:
I think that's a huge kind of distinction to make. People often equate what feels good as their comfort zone. And I think what I hear you saying is that what feels good can also be growth. It can be areas that you didn't necessarily know that you would push into or go for because, and you talk about your, and I can definitely understand the anxiety that comes with needing to put yourself in unfamiliar places and constantly, but I think it's different for everyone. And I think it's not just things that are supposed to make you feel uncomfortable, but it's kind of like the do it scared thing. The whole embracing it, embracing the experience. If we think about it only in terms of this is our boundary, this is our bubble, we're doing things for us, right. Self-care. Right. And actually, this is where I think your startup fits.
It kind of overlaps with this world of, yeah, I need to care more about my priorities. Me, yes, but also we are dynamic creatures, human beings that are living, breathing, growing, evolving. We are constantly learning. So it's not the static feeling of just retreat into your little hibernation corner and stay there and sleep until the ultimate rest. I wish. I know. It's also as we try to manage this life, the unpredictability of what life can bring us individually, we can also choose, make choices that are in alignment with who we are at our core, et cetera, et cetera. I really like the intentionality behind that. Obviously, it fits a lot with who I am as a person and my working philosophy as well, to be honest, for a long time, language learning is, I think it's one of those subjects or disciplines that people have often wanted, especially English to put inside of, again, the UNICEF path.
I don't have another way to brand it. I love unicef, thank you UNICEF, for everything you do in the world, right? It's created this perception of, for instance, only being from certain impoverished areas of the world. And that is not at all true. And even if that were true, yes, we're going to get there. So even if that were true, it keeps people there. And so I know I have so many stories of people who started out in very, very, very difficult parts of the world who ended up journeying through their life, getting jobs, starting families moving to different countries or even moving back. Their country had developed. And yet the resounding evaluation or the feedback they get from the rest of the world about their language, about who they are as a person is like, oh, your life must oh so hard. Tell me more. How can I as a native English speaker, help donate to your cause? And they're like, I'm really, I'm fine. Yeah. I went through
Kax:
All this that, oh my God. Yeah. It still bothers me when I get asked, but why do you speak English so well? Oh Lord. Yeah. Honey, it's 2025. You can also Google the answer. For those who don't know in Philippines, English is our second language or a third language, depending on where you are from. We don't dub anything. Well, we do dub some movies and some cartoons, but they're like 10% of the things that we get. We put everything in original language. Our books are in English. I grew up watching Sesame Street in English, a lot of you, so it's always been a default language for me. Of course, there was four English in school wherein we get taught structure, and I can vaguely remember what that looked like, but it always felt natural for me, especially since I grew up in a family who reads a lot.
So I knew the words before I knew how to speak it. And also in Philippines for some, no, it's all beard, but if you speak English, it's a huge enabler. You're kind of elevated in status in intelligence in a lot of places. It opens up a lot of doors for you. We have this, I don't even know how to explain it. So there's kind of English speakers where it's like valley girl, the valley girl accent, the Valley girl language vocabulary. We have a similar concept in Filipino, we call it language. The Spanish would laugh at that, but it's a bunch of people who come from a certain life, a certain lifestyle, they all come from the same schools, et cetera. It's really bad English, by the way. If you hear it, it's not grammatically correct, nothing. It's terrible. But you speak that people already associate you with wealth, with intelligence, and with opportunities, and they're all coming from the same four or five private schools, universities, et cetera. And yeah, that opens doors for you. I don't have it. I don't,
Michelle:
I was going to say, I don't think this is your archetype
Kax:
Or whatever. Yeah, no, but I have friends. I went to one of those universities, but since I took up computer science and university, I was with the scholarship kids who grew up from the province. So we don't have that language by default, but we were surrounded by the kids who do, and we could see them after graduation. They were the ones who got to the important companies. They were the ones who got calls immediately for interviews while we were still slaving away with the entrance exams, et cetera, et cetera. Not to say that everybody had the leg up, it's just that association
Michelle:
With, it's sounding a little similar to how we have this kind of mobility inside of Ivy Leagues, which it's not everyone, but definitely if you went in the us, if you went to a prep school and then you went to an Ivy league and you come from what's called a legacy family, and basically it opens doors because the network and yeah, it's like you had these doors opened and you didn't have to go through all the levels of competing each time.
Kax:
So that was English. And then I had to learn Spanish. When I moved here, I was learning Spanish when I moved here, I got lucky with my company. They had an in-company Spanish teacher. To be honest, I never really learned from those classes. I think I learned how to say or how to explain what I did the weekend before and that pretty much it. So I started going this guy who arg, who never really dumbed down the class, so we were talking about grammar and structure, et cetera. He would talk about politics, he would talk about philosophy, and he would also talk about celebrity gossip, just to get the words out of me and also to make me feel comfortable. We kind of lost touch during the pandemic. And then when he started teaching again, his classes were always full. I never really went back to learning formally after.
Michelle:
Did you try other teachers before you found him or was it just a recommendation? It aligns so well with the way that I think and work. And definitely when I did more traditional instruction, I mean, that's what I'm calling traditional. My God, it's not even going totally out of the box thinking was traditional for me. So you can imagine what I'm doing now, but honestly, to go and find someone like this, I actually find it's very rare in the language industry. You have a lot of professionals who will just give you nonstop exercises. So yeah. How did you get in touch with this guy?
Kax:
So before him and even after him, I tried other teachers, but before this guy, I went to the language schools because I know myself enough that I cannot do big groups. So I still tried to go for maximum five, eight people group classes, and that was still too much for me, but I tried, but the moment that they put those books in front of me, I already shut down. It's not my learning preference at all. And I went to two or three I think, because I was thinking, okay, maybe even if there are books, if the teacher was engaging enough, if the class was engaging enough, I wasted so much money on those. I signed up for a six pack class package. I went to two and then did not go back. And then after pandemic, when I was reviewing for the Spanish language exam for my citizenship, there's this platform called Ley where they match you with shooters. And I found somebody who was okay enough, as in she's great, she still puts structure. We were really centering my practice, preparing for that exam, but I never really found that connection, that base, that energy that I had with the guy that I ended up going to for two years and I lost so much vocabulary after him.
Michelle:
Yeah. I also think if you were going to language classes for exam purposes, it makes sense that you could find someone, let's say on a platform like preppy or any sort of language teaching platform that matches with your needs because it, it's a standardized exam. So basically what you need to do, any other standardized exam, as we all know, I hope we all know at this point, is like, you need to pass the requirements of the exam. The exam is testing you on how well you learned how to pass the exam. So all you need to do is do that. And many people who do the exam prep still struggle having normal conversations in everyday life because they don't get to practice vocabulary or sentence structure that's not inside of the exam. So what you're talking about here, I think resonates with so many. I hope it resonates with so many people.
I know it does because I see, I think it does the other side, but I don't think people really talk about it enough, directly enough. I see that there is a kind of almost like a hesitant feeling of people not wanting to say that exam prep is not real language use. And I'm out there every day being like, it is not the same. Why are we trying to BS people and say it's the same? And we're not just talking languages, we're talking for you in particular, your background, your personal life story, not only your culture as like, oh, tell me about your culture. Wait, again, we go back to unesco, or sorry, this is now unesco, but I got to go through all of the organizations, which again, thank you very much to these organizations for the great work that you do. It's just not the same area, right?
Kax:
Yeah, no, and also this is what I complain about my friends here who are local because every once in a while, at some point we're going to get drunk enough and somebody's going to make fun of why I still don't speak Spanish. And I think I gotten to a point at least with them, wherein I'm like, I'm done feeling bad about this. If it was somebody else who I'm having this conversation with, I would feel bad. But my friends are my friends. I can be an ass as much as they can. But what I always complain about is that the Spanish that they speak, not to mention Catalan, because there's the second, there's the other language. The Spanish that they speak is so different from the Spanish that I've been taught, the nuances to how they use a particular word. Of course, the language schools will teach it, teach you the very, very formal Spanish. The Spanish that I can speak very comfortably with the grandparents, I can do that, but I catch their street Spanish, add the slam, the shortcuts, the interation, the context, because it's a joke about show that they used to watch when there were five. How am I supposed to know all of that and wrap my head around that story and formulate a response?
That's a tall ask. So there's that part that makes it even harder than you add the business context, which is a completely different Spanish altogether. And from a vocabulary point of, I get so annoyed because they have the same word for 20 different things. What you guys got lazy. There is nobody who can make up new words at some point, but I'll not argue about how their language is structured, made, formed, et cetera. But that expectation of, Hey, I get it. I've been here 10 years and it's kind of embarrassing, but there's so much, there's so many layers to why it's hard. And it's not just about because you're not willing to learn. I wish it was that then I can change it with discipline and whatever. I can change it if that was the case, but it never is.
Michelle:
Yeah, no. And you're somebody who does not think of language as a, okay, well I am coming in, use English with me, right? Because I speak, it's not a sort of selfish positioning, as many as is the stereotype. I think there seems to be this default classification or categorization that goes, if you don't speak a language that the local language, it must be because you're not trying. It must be because you don't care. It must be because you never made a single attempt. It must be because, and it's like can't really understand why this is the default. And I've been told things like, oh, it's because historically. And I'm like, well, I haven't seen that to be true either. Historically, I know a ton of people who have immigrated, migrated, took short term contracts, whatever. And most of them tried to learn the local language. So I'm a little confused in terms of
Where this perception came from because I really think that does more damage than a lot of other things. That puts an immediate barrier between you and the other person because not only are you working to learn and speak to communicate with them, but they already come in with this closed door mindset of, oh, well it's because you're not even, how dare you? How dare you live? Yeah, how dare you live for 10 years and not try? And it's like, I have literally been spending so much of my own money to do this, and you didn't even take two seconds to confirm that before characterizing me as such,
Kax:
And this is what I love about my friends, because now we can make fun of it. But there's also now the understanding of, yeah, we don't make it easier for you. So if I take this conversation with somebody else with, I dunno, from a work setting or the super nationalistic people of you should be speaking Spanish, I take it with them. I end up going down the black hole of, well, when you colonized us 400 years ago, you didn't speak my, it's not really a nice place to go down. But it's very true though. It does happen. It does happen. Well, why don't you move to another country and try it then? For me, that's how I feel every single time because I'm sure you would speak English. We speak English like this. It's very formal, it's very slow. It's a very simple conversation enough, but sure, move to a different country, try to catch up as well with the nuances, the jokes, the gossip, and see how it goes for you. Because until you try it, then you can't judge me for it either.
Michelle:
Yeah, it's a complete lack of empathy I feel. And also it's a double or sometimes triple standard that they'll place. Because often what I see is the people, and this is what we're talking, it's not everyone, of course, but it is very frequent, at least in my experiences and in my sort of circles. And of course it just depends on who you contact every day. But when I see that somebody is able to say something like that to someone like you, and then at the same time they only speak one language, which is their own local language, they've never lived in another country. Even if they speak English, it's not as you were saying, it's not quite the same meaning you might know it for certain contexts if at that, right? And also it's like, well, how dare you, and you've mentioned this kind of separately, but how dare you come from a former colony? I literally, that's the part that gets me. I would just laugh because are you serious? How dare you come from one of our former colonies and not speak our language and we are here to continue faulting you 400 years later for it.
Kax:
Oh my God, whenever I hear that, why don't you speak Spanish? You are a Spanish colony, right? Blah, blah, blah. I'm like, lemme take out the history books because you guys refuse to teach us to keep us under your are whatever. Let's really not go there because you're still going to come out as an asshole. So let's not.
But I think for me, what really makes it harder is that then I get these judgment and it annoys me as hell, but it also triggers so many things like my perfectionism, like, oh hell no. Now even more, I cannot practice my bad Spanish because I need to be at this level to have that fight. And then it kind of just pulls me even lower. And I'm a coach, I know the path towards this. Yeah, you should just keep going and forget about confidence. It'll build over time. But it is hard. It's there, especially if for some weird reason I'm fighting the fight of the Filipinos all over the world of just wanting to show that, you know what? I deserve to be here. I'm amazing. I'm good. And I don't feel like I can do that fight any justice if my Spanish is broken. And I think I feel my ancestor spirit being like, but you're all right. You're doing fine. Go for it. But yeah, that's what I mean by it's so many layers. There's the internal shame to also fight through, especially when you grow up in a culture where in anything lower than an A, you lose all privileges.
Michelle:
Yeah. How dare you exist if you were to bring back grades that weren't perfect, right? Yeah.
Kax:
So those things compound. If you grow up not being allowed to make mistakes or yeah, it's held against you to make mistakes. Language is learning. Your learning preferences, your learning style will carry that even if you're working.
Michelle:
I think that it gave me a lot of comfort to see many different types of, so my experiences in France, I talk a lot I think on my stories and on other things about how difficult it was for me initially in the country and how it gave me a lot of comfort to meet many different types of French speakers and realize how much of the problem is and isn't me. So in the beginning especially, was my language used perfect? No, but I received a lot. I mean, it's my own version of all the things that you talk about. And we have additional layers of I'm Asian, but I'm also American. So that apparently is a very difficult concept for many people.
It seems very catchy to say, but it's like how we have to go to layers before, but meeting people from what's called, they call them the territories, but they're really former French colonies that were then taken into France. And so basically midway through the last century, the colonies got a choice. They were given the choice of after being completely destroyed of joining France or going and being independent, going on their own way. And so many of these people, they have multiple official languages. They had to learn French in school, they speak French with a different accent than people do in metropolitan France. That's kind of how people refer to it, like mainland, in separate conversations with people in the French speaking world, including Canadians, including many others, I really realized, yeah, it doesn't matter, does it how much I improve in this language to the level that you say I should, how much I need to change myself to match what you think is the template form. Because if you will not even accept other people outside of mainland from the former colonies who speak your language fluently, but just with a different kind of flavor on it, you don't even consider this as being native French speaking, then I don't even know what chance I stand as someone who has no relationship to France or the French language and just happened to stay because I unintentionally fell in love. You know what I mean?
That is my only kind of link to this whole I, sorry, Michelle, not strong enough. So I actually, I think that helps me make peace with it because for sure I am a recovering perfectionist. I'm someone who is very, but I'm still very detailed oriented. And my other background language, the one I had from young is Mandarin Chinese, which is extremely precise when you have to speak in a certain way. And I don't know, I really think that maybe it seems unprofessional to some, because I work in languages and I'm supposed to carry this air of, oh, well, how dare you make mistakes with this language? You must speak like me. I'm the ultimate standard as someone who is working in the industry and also a native speaker. And because I dare to talk about it in the most pragmatic way possible, in the most honest and fair and real way possible. I do think that's something that has been very interesting to navigate. Okay, let's go back to you because this is not about my life. It's a lot of this commiseration and a lot of this. I feel you and I have not had many face-to-face. We have had one. This is our first to face to
Kax:
Conversation, but we've talked so about so many things before this. That's why I'm like, please go on and please, and I forgot that we're in no podcast. No, but
Michelle:
I love that. I love because I feel like not only do I feel like I get to know you better with each passing day, with each message that we send each other, but so much doesn't have to be explained. Because when you're with people who have lived certain things or can understand it, just the conversation can move faster.
Kax:
And you're exactly right on that point. I mean, I try to explain this to my friends and they're very understanding, but they still won't get it. They still won't get it easily because they grew up in a very, very different context. They grew up in a very western, very white context, and that comes with so many privileges on its own. So yes, I'm sure a lot of them also suffer from perfectionism, et cetera, and their own self-limiting beliefs, but it doesn't add to it the brown, Asian immigrant baggage. They don't have that. And I can explain, they can understand, but they'll never know. And then there's still, there's a broken line bridge there versus if we talk about it, that's why it's so fascinating for me. It's like a double line bridge.
Michelle:
Yeah, yeah, exactly. Like channels just open on both sides and it's so much more dynamic and really we can get farther and deeper, I think faster as a result. I'm wondering if you can talk a little bit about the way that working inside of a multicultural space and using English. I mean you have mentioned before that your company was because you went out and did your own thing, right? Still are My previous, yeah, is English first. And for people who don't know what those very literal words mean, it basically means that English is the working language and it's the one that everyone is supposed to use and all formal correspondence and also in communication with coworkers, but also people come from so many different parts of the world working together. Can you talk a little bit about what it was navigating all that?
Kax:
Sure. So well, over the years, a company got more European centric. Before we were all over Asia, we were all over South America as well. But I think at some point just before pandemic, we consolidated the company to be 99% Europe. But even so they have offices in Spain and France, in Amsterdam and in Germany and Italy, et cetera. So they have a good mix of southern European culture and northern European culture. You get the charming Europeans, and then you get the hard straight code Europeans, literally. So it's really, really, it's quite a mix, I would say. And then of course, within those offices you have immigrants like me, there's not a lot of Southeast Asian people or it's not a lot of Asian people actually, but there's a lot of South American, south Americans. So then they bring in their own flavor into the mix.
So yes, we, they're an English first company, except course when you have the small pockets of conversations wherein I'm meeting with people who are French, let's go there who are French, and then there's always the side conversation because somebody doesn't speak English very well. That's the same in Spain. There's always going to be a side conversation, even if you're in the same thing. And somebody will have to translate, kind of annoys me because children, it's supposed to be an English speaking company if I'm trying and somebody else has to try as well. On the other hand, I do understand because it's not like everybody had the same education as I did when it came to English, but I can also imagine that I've lost so much context in that conversation. And it becomes even harder, especially if it's an important conversation for negotiating, if we're fighting over priorities, if there was apparently an escalation about me and my team and I cannot even have a good conversation because there's always going to be a need for a translation somewhere. And I think it happens more often with my French police. My team though, was very interesting because I think we were super, super, super, super diverse. We were all coming from different countries, so the grasp of the language of English was very good for my team. But then there's the nuances behind that language. My Filipino English is very, very polite. That's how I grew up. That's Dutch. I don't know how to put, I don't even have
Michelle:
A word for it, but there's like, okay, she's making chopping motions. By the way, this is an audio only broadcast. Well, I mean I have the YouTube going up, but yeah, she's making chopping motions at the,
Kax:
But that very, very straight to the point. There's no mincing words, there's no going around. And then I've gotten so much feedback from my team in the beginning, hacks, just give it to me straight. You're going around in circles again because that's my default. And then on the other hand, some people would be like, oh my God, don't be such an asshole to the Northern European colleagues. It would be such an asshole and you could be nicer about this. And they'd be like, I'm nice. I don't have any bad intention for this. To a point that we actually had to just for fun, but somebody thought it was a good idea, the culture map exercise, just to also bring forth the culture behind people's behaviors. So just because we were all speaking English and we were speaking English very well, doesn't mean we were speaking the same English either. Exactly. So that was super, super cool and very, very interesting. And I think that really changed the relationship afterwards because now we know that he's not rude. He's just Dutch. She's not being shady or being unclear. She's just being a Filipino. And then it's easier to be patient with the other person or also not take it. So personally when somebody's like, okay, move it alone, just go to the point before, it would hurt me. I'd be like, oh my God, what wrong did I do now? But after that exercise, it was like, right, right. I'm going down the black hole again and then I could code switch after much faster.
Michelle:
And again, it's empathy building. It's something that is specific to your workplace, right? Because something that I am asked just by people who get a little bit of an idea of what it is I do is whether or not my clients are people who are working in primarily, let's say US companies or companies that are native English speaking, but a huge population of native speakers. And I always have to clarify again, when your head, what is a native speaker? Number two, when you think about really multicultural multinational environments like this, even if everyone let's say is from the same continent, this continent has so many different countries and so many different languages and cultures and something that we forget when we talk about English and particular, and it's very special for this reason being the international language. It's a tool that we're using, but filtering it through also who we are as people and we're formed by different experiences and backgrounds and education.
And so when you think about how that comes through language as a tool, but for communication, and then when you put this together in this massive pool, it's the same language, but everyone's using it differently because their communication style, because of their cultural background, because of their personality differences. Also because to be honest, some people are just complete assholes and they like to use their culture as a reason, but it is not the reason. It's absolutely a personality trait. Exercise is like what you talked about, culture mapping or just bringing everyone together to consciously process what's going on are so powerful for organizations, for companies, for teams, for projects, whatever. Because this is the new norm in a way for many, many, many companies around the world, people who are no longer just moving to other countries and then adapting their communication style to match the majority group.
It's changed a lot because globalization, because technology, because a lot of my clients are remote workers living in their own countries, needing to deal with situations like what you described and why I always bring their organizational environment into the picture. It's the number one question I ask. It's a deep, oh my god, it's too long. I spend probably assessing where they are literally. But it's very, very, very necessary because I can work on somebody's language and communication, but they are using it in an environment that is specific to the job that they hold or the position that they have at the time that can change. So when someone changes their job, the whole thing and we have to recalibrate. And so then the question of how do you work on your communication skills if you're also equally influenced by environmental factors, I think we're all doing this in life, but people who work in teams like this, they have to do it faster. And so you and everyone else have to work on this faster. And I wish that more companies would bring in, I don't know if it's necessary to training, because I don't think you have to learn it, but I just think someone has to bring this together more.
Kax:
So one of the things that I talk about a lot with my clients is that communication, it's not just words that's like 50% of the communication itself. It's how you conduct yourself in a conversation. For example, the words that you choose will have to change depending on how high up you go in the organization or the kinds of conversations that you can be part of also change drastically. You're no longer going to be part of the lunch gossip if you move up to leadership or if you're part of, and I'm going to go to a specific example. Before I went on a leadership position, I was lunch gossip group, and people were so free sharing their complaints, their feelings, because I was also sharing mine and then move up to a leadership position. Sometimes I would still get invited to lunch, but I couldn't feel the dynamic change.
The people who knew me well would not hold back or not hold back as much with their feelings and their complaints, but I could hear it tone down. It's like, yeah, but it's not so bad. There's always that disclaimer in the end because they don't want to be seen as complaining. So the whole communication thing, it's very, very contextual. It's the language, the vocabulary that's just a huge part. It's a small part to a bigger ecosystem of behaviors and feelings and who is part of that conversation as well that makes up what this communication is going to look like. So yeah, I forgot my, forgot my point. But yeah, just saying that it changes. Changes, it evolves depending on the context, depending on the role. I also can't be sharing as much my feelings anymore, at least not out loud because I know the influence that will have on people, their decisions, their perception about what's going on.
At least with my team, I've always had a, I'm going to be super transparent policy with them, but that was a choice I was able to make because my team was senior enough to be able to filter if information is useful or not, or I trusted them that they could come to me and say, what are we going to do about this? Should we do something about this? And we can have a conversation about it. But I cannot bring that level of transparency anymore to beers after work, for example. And that also impacts the words that I choose
Michelle:
That's like this, I always use this word, but it's multifactorial every single time we think about someone's language or communication. It is absolutely so complex and so complicated because there are so many factors that kind of do this crisscrossing, intersecting kind of like all the time. And it's like I don't think humans are smart enough to consciously process. I think we know what's happening, but it's in our background processing. But we know something's going on and we can see it. And if we take the time, you and I, we can list it out. But something that's so hard, I think to explain very, very quickly and why I actually made the podcast a long format because I'm like, we have to take the time to get into these topics is because unless you are, I don't think many people know to see it, to be honest.
So I think that the people I invite on here, there are people who understand this because you've lived it and because you've done the maybe inner work to figure out what's going on because you've exposed yourself and to different environments and because seen the changes and you've had conversations. But I do think a lot of people, because they were taught to see language and communication as the same number one, which that first, yeah. And then number two about communication in a non-native language or a second or third or whatever it might be, a working language being about perfection, which is another hurdle. But then also they don't see how that can change based not only, again, like we were talking about the organizational culture and your team dynamic, but it's also based on your position relative to your environment. So when your position changes, the responsibilities change, but also your communication style and how you behave, everything else needs to change as well.
It's like this is the area I work in every day, therefore I can see it so clearly. And I think something that I not only struggle with but also find a little shocking is that so few people see it, so few people understand it. And that includes people inside the industry, people who have 20 something years teaching experience in, I don't know, business, advanced classes, all that. And it's like, did you never think for one moment that human psychology or industrial organizational psychology or any other social factors play a role like sociocultural factors? Also the industry really needs to work on this. So I'm wondering if you can talk a little bit about the things that you think have worked for the better in the way that the world is seeing. We're going big picture, the world is seeing language or culture or more of the good that's come out of all of the years of historical bad. You can take a moment. I know it's like you and I think are similar. We are very pragmatists, so I think it's hard to find silver linings sometimes, but I'm wondering if you can find any. You don't have to. I cut things out by the way.
Kax:
I think I can. I mean, I'm kind of a glass half full, three days out, seven person. So a couple of things for all of the hate that immigrants are getting, I think this global mobilization, how it has increased by a lot, and I don't even know how many years, but certainly the graduate has multiplied by a hundred fold by that time I turned 30. So that mobilization I think helps a lot because you cannot help but be exposed to different kinds of communication, different people trying to patch words together just to make sense. And even if there are a lot of people who lack empathy, I think there are more people who are becoming empathetic because one way or another, they're going to cross paths with somebody one way or another. They're going to be their friend, they're going to be their boss, they're going to be their report.
So that interaction is going to be there. I think also for all of the annoying stuff that social media brings, and it's not really good for one's confidence, the exposure to different kinds of, again, culture to different kinds of people who are also taking the time to educate and explain why they speak the way that they speak, why they speak 5 million languages. And I love these Instagram reels wherein they explain the nuances of languages, how a single word, for example, in Filipino, there's a word, but it's rooted in this part of the culture and it actually means like this, et cetera, et cetera. And there would be something, an equivalent for Spanish. And I love these things because those make me want to learn more. It sticks to my memory. And I think every person, every individual will have their own preference of what actually they find interesting and what sticks to their memory and even better why something like that.
So there's that part, and I think a lot of people now are also being more vocal about the importance of the human aspect of the industry, the evolution of the industry. I think, or maybe it's my echo chamber on LinkedIn, but now there's a lot more people talking about the nuances of the languages that we use at work or how not saying anything actually communicates a hundred times more. So a lot of people, myself included, say a lot these days show up and that means so many things when you speak up for yourself, would you share your opinion? Would you show up for your team? As in would you defend them? If CEO is going to change the roadmap for the fifth time in the week, will you say something or will you be absent? That's still communication and it's being called out as communication even if you're saying zero words or 50.
So I think that's a silver lining. I think a lot more people are talking about communication in so many lights, in so many angles and also centering more the people who are impacted by it. And that's my silver lining. I hope it gets better and I think it'll be a huge fight in the next couple of years everywhere. But I also think that the fight is there because it's inevitable. It's inevitable to think more about humans in between. It's inevitable to think more about human relationships, benefits, and the fight is there because some people don't like it and now they're just being now the people who are not speaking more, there are more people who are not speaking about it, but they're actually acting to support it. So that gives completely agree. Yeah, that gives me hope.
Michelle:
It's difficult to remember sometimes that there is a sober lining to this if I'm being totally honest because sometimes I'm just like, oh my God, I see all of the challenges. It's not just me personally. I see the challenges my clients face. I see the challenges that people who are in immigrant populations face. I see it from all these different angles. And in my head, I'm also reliving all the stuff I had to in my childhood and also reliving all the stuff from my family's background and all that. And you talk about not wanting to go there, but your ancestors talking, right? And it's just like, okay, I know it can be so heavy sometimes it can be. And I have to take moments these days when, especially if I'm feeling really overwhelmed by it just to step away. And I realized that change in myself when I first started this full-time, right?
I really realized how invested I became. And it's a good thing because that's why I work one-on-one. I like going deep. I like getting into all the complication, but it's something that also I think the closest, it might be coaches and trainers, but it's also, therapists will also say that when they work one-on-one with people, it's very, very taxing because you get those windows, those one hour little windows into people's lives and you see everything that they have to go through and you're holding it for each person that you're working with. And that gets exhausting because you also have to be responsible for helping guide them, helping facilitate and lead and step into those different roles as the situation requires. And these things are often, I mean not just often, they're completely outside of our control. You and I don't control how the world evolves.
We don't control. I wish. I know we don't control how our clients' lives go or the decisions they're making or what their boss says to them. And I think especially for your coaching work, let's actually have you talk a little bit about that because I love not only what we talked about in the beginning about building what feels good and that being about growth, but I think you really, really work from that empowerment standpoint in helping people even if they are in difficult situations. And I told you that I myself really could have used you when I was working in tech because I thought I was going crazy, being the only person who could see all of the mess that was going on.
Kax:
I think what really got me into the coaching was first and foremost, my own experience, my own bullshit experiences with many things. My first push towards coaching and mentoring was just because everybody in the product world was like, you need to be doing this kind of work or you're going to get left behind. If you are not learning this framework, you're not going to be a part of the top one person. So those things really create great at me because first, which 1%, who decides what is 1% who goes into the 1%? And then there's also left behind from why is there a race all of a sudden? And I find myself, I found myself thinking about this while I'm still running the race,
But then I'm like at some point I gave up because on one hand, I'm still not getting the promotion. I'm still fighting about my salary and I'm learning all of these frameworks and for what is the point. And I found out that I'm not the only one. We're getting shoved down our throat so many frameworks that we don't even have the time to figure out how to use them. So I'm the queen of reframing. I like to reframe things just so I can figure out how to make them useful for me. So things like manager stakeholders, does that mean, I mean, they're not my reports. How can I manage them? They're not children. I cannot tell them what to do.
So I struggled with that kind of operation as in this is what you do. I don't even know what that means for me. How do I make it work? So I started reframing things for myself. So what if I don't manage my stakeholders and I build my relationship with them instead? What if I don't look at it as cross-functional collaboration and just think of it as I really do enjoy working with my tech lead and my designer and my team and we can build something around this. I couldn't even really fathom what it meant to have a product strategy until somebody helped me reframe it into what you're just helping your team figure out what to do and what not to do, or which themes of work they need to prioritize. And those things help me. And realizing that there were so many other people who also had the same struggle as I did in the more practical operational sense of things made me want to step up and help from that direction.
Then when I started being a manager and I started talking with my team about their struggles and also realizing that I have my own struggles and that were nothing to do now with the practical bit, there were nothing to do with the delivery. It was really just about am I going to fight my boss about this? What's going to happen to me? Am I going to be that person in the all hands who will give feedback to the CEO about this? Am I really going to ask that difficult question? Or why are people fighting? It's just work and I have to help my team sort these things out because I cannot sort it out for them even if I really want to do. And then there's that. How do I help them sort it out? How do I help myself not feel bad because I can sort it out for them?
And then I started realizing, oh shit, there's another layer to this. This is not just the product life as people like to talk about it as if you just implement this framework, you're going to be gold. No, but how do I even convince people that we actually need to do something about this, that this is a problem? How do I get them to trust me or better? How can I trust them so I can let go and do work? And then these are the things that I started talking more and more about and people started coming to me for help for, even though they were not my reports, they were not my clients. And I'm like, oh shit, there's another angle to my coaching. And that just multiplied even more for me that I want to focus on this now when I burned out, when I burned out from work, because so many things were going on, and it's not about the overworked part. It was trying to operate in this situation that was incomplete, misalignment or what felt good.
I was not enjoying the work. I was just constantly fighting fires. My role was in danger and I had to choose between applying for this role that I had zero interest for or be in limbo or I don't maybe get fired. And just having to think about all of those things while I have to be operational made me also think like, okay, I mean, why am I operating under the rules of somebody else all the time? Why am I trying to make myself fit in somebody else's box and they win? And what do I get stress, I get sick.
That was it for me. That was also probably why I started underlining more, what feels good, what feels good, and then coming to terms with what I want to help people with. Sure, I'm going to help you get practical. I'm going to help you deliver this because we need to get that out of the way. But then let's also talk about what's important for you. Why are you having these conflicts with your team? Why do you feel like you need to know everything before you show up in front of them? Where is this feeling of fear coming from, that you're not leaving this toxic job and you're getting sick because of it and you won't try go somewhere else? Or why are you even just trying even though you don't like it anymore? So let's sort out the practical bit so we can free up space in your brain and we want to totally do that, but I'm ready.
Really more interested in you as a person as the PM because if you are not, well, regardless of how many RDS we put out there or deliver and how many OKRs, 90% successful, whatever, you are going to wake up one day and ask yourself, is this it? And let's try not to get there because that is a very, very difficult hole to get out of. And I always say this to my clients, if you're trying to make this promotion or this role or this type of be the source of your value. If you need this to feel good about yourself, you're going about this the wrong way because you're never going to feel good about yourself. It's always going to be about the next role, the next title. And you cannot control that. There's budget
Reorgs. There are, that role doesn't just doesn't exist at all. And that's completely fine because you can totally create that role somewhere else, or you don't have to run after that role because you know your value. You're going to get it from inside of you and you're going to bring it out. When that's out, everybody will see that you're amazing because I mean, it's woohoo, but fine. But I really believe that the energy you bring into the room, that energy carries. If people see that you're not sure about the value that you bring, and even if you're just about to say, I don't know, you need to be sure about that to be confident in saying, I don't know, but you know what? I'll find out and come back to you. Because if you're coming in there to say that and you're already nervous, people are going to get nervous. And why should people trust you. But if you are saying that, you know what? I don't know right now, but I can find out and I'll let you know, and I'll have a plan after.
People just want to feel chill or at least more confident that things are not going to blow up in their base. And as product managers, that's our job pretty much 90% of the time. And then the 10% is holding people together so that nobody goes off course and nobody collapses at the wrong time. Our job is people actually more than it is the delivery. The other functions are doing the delivery, but we're also trying to help them. We're trying to create an environment so that they can deliver. So we absorb so much of the annoyance, the frustration, the confusion, the pressure. So if we're not good inside and we're not clear and we're not about who we are and what we bring to the table, we don't wrap ourselves around our values. We're going to break super fast. I did at least, and even though it took me a while to get to the breaking point, I was right below it for the longest time.
I don't think I can save the world, but if I can at least help one person at a time, just have fun and enjoy their day, and look at work as just work, not the source of their value, not the source of their recognition, it's just something brunch, then it's going to be a lot healthier around here in this industry, especially these days when everybody's running around like, oh, AI this, AI that deep seek happened and it's great. No, it's terrible. Oh, AI's going to kill your job. And everybody's trying to make predictions left and right, and they're just contradicting themselves. It's so much uncertainty and that takes a lot to operate it. So it also needs a lot of stability in internet.
