Episode 15:

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Patra:

I am Patra. I am Ugandan born. I am multicultural, multilingual. I professionally am a hypnotherapist. I do mostly self-concept and identity work. I am passionate about healing generational patterns and trauma and also emotional regulation and emotional intelligence. So to say. I live in Australia with my twin girls and originally obviously I am from Uganda. So I think this is why we're doing this podcast because of that language and communication.

 

Michelle:

That's really true. By the way, the reason why it's not because you're from Uganda, it's because of the fact that you've had such a multicultural life. Yes, absolutely.

 

Patra:

Yes, that's what I meant. But as you can also tell, being multicultural and multi lingo and just being able to speak more than one language, it makes you, I still have not enough vocabulary won. Maybe I'm going to say something right in English or the tone is not going to sound right. It's something that I've obviously been healing, and right now I'm not very self-conscious as I used to be. Obviously I am Ugandan born and my mother tongue is Luanda, and in our households we do speak Luanda. However, when you're going to school, everything that's official is in English. So I feel like that, but in a way, when I look at it now, it kind of made it seem like the mother tongue, the mother language is not really enough. But also I get where that came from. My country has so many different cultural languages and they probably all want to be the national language, and so I get where it came from to just make it an official language. So everyone needs to learn English to be able to communicate. So language, for me, it was always about communication and the fact that we did have an official language, it kind of made it seem like a leveled playing field

In a way. That's what I conceptualized when I was younger

Because,well, I cannot speak KO or ro, but I can speak English and if you're from Toro or you're from Western Uganda, you'll be able to speak with me in English, if that makes sense. So the early experiences language for me was always about connection to be able to communicate, to speak with the others. Historically, Uganda a country, the whole country had kingdoms in with itself. So all these kingdoms were always fighting to be the domination one. But also we got colonized and we had English people, and then it was like, oh, okay, so now I can put my gut down. These people know better than us. So now they're still called Luanda, Swahili, which is disturbing because it's completely two different languages.

Even in movies. So Swahili is East Africa originally had three countries, which was Kenya, Tanzania, and Uganda and Kenya and Tanzania. They're all bigger than Uganda and they all speak Swahili.

 

Michelle:

Got It. Okay.

 

Patra:

So my suspicion is it was generalized that the whole East Africa, because the biggest part speaks Swahili, but Uganda speaks Uganda because even if you asked a Swahili speaking person, they would tell you that it's not Swahili.

 

Michelle:

And so you were raised with English being not an option then right inside of school it's mandatory, yes.

 

Patra:

It was never an option. Yeah,

 

Michelle:

Yeah, okay.

It was something that you just had to learn.

And so that deemphasizing of your mother language, that to you was more like, okay, it's a necessary move on the part of the country to bring unity and communication in some way. Was there ever a point where you started to feel like, but it's a little bit weird because we we're speaking this everywhere else in your family, I assume, or with friends, but then you have to switch into English for academic reasons?

 

Patra:

I feel like this was something that, it was more how I can say it in a way. When you don't know, you don't know, and you've been raised like this until you fully become an adult, that's when you start to pick up the differences and start to look behind and go like, okay, that was probably not how I think things should have been because my experience was growing up, it was always like I needed to learn English to be educated so that I can look educated, I can look cool. That recognition that comes with, oh, she's educated and her English is really good. I guess that's how my English became good because I was always striving to be better and it was always a wound of not being enough or not loving my heritage and my culture. And when I grew up, that's when I realized that actually I did really hate my heritage and my culture because it was made to look like it didn't have a seat at the table. It didn't deserve a seat at the table. It just get out of the way. And it did ache me up to now I do try to teach my twins a few Luanda words

As obvious. I've healed the wound of that, of my nationality and yeah, I'm getting emotional about this.

 

Michelle:

Get as emotional as you want. Okay. Oh my gosh. No, I appreciate, well, I appreciate the rawness and the vulnerability. Of course, I do think this, it makes a lot of sense logically, right? Okay, you went to school, you were educated, therefore you have this level of English also you want to show that you went through all that. However, when we cross into the territory of cultural or heritage based rejection, and that happens a lot with kids because kids are not really sure what to do. I can speak for myself, but also so many other people I know we're adults now, but we were once children going through all that and not realizing until later, like you were saying now you look back and you're like, yeah, I actually think there were things that I learned to do as a result of this organization in society. So I do think it makes sense that you're getting very deep, very raw, very fast. Okay, it totally makes sense is what we're here for. That's also the really beautiful part that you're able to recognize. Alright, that's a wound I have addressed, I've healed. I'm still, I don't think we ever kind of say, okay, well we're healed, we're good.

It's not separate from you, it's more like you've carried it, but you've put it in its rightful place now. And so now with your daughters, you get to approach that differently.

 

Patra:

Yes. And also there's this something that I've noticed in myself recently, and you know how conceptually we can intellectualize a lot of things with the mind. I can move fast and I can have so many, so much information, so many tools. And then you realize that your body cannot move that fast. And it used to be frustrating because in the past I would have to beat myself up, why am I feeling like this? Why is this happening? But then to just have that compassion for yourself and for your body because your body keeps more memories than our brains. So I can work through that wound and I know exactly what is happening, but my body does not. And sometimes it'll show me that, oh, this is something that's still really, really important to me, really important. And it's raw, it's vulnerable. So I think I just wanted to put that out there because I have held it. My body's still trying to work through it, so I'm taking steps in front and then back to come with myself.

 

Michelle:

Yeah,

That is so exactly what I go through as well. Okay. Personally, I cry spontaneously at times. It's really strange, but I'll be in some part of the world where something has triggered some dormant memory and it's not conscious, but all of a sudden I have this very visceral reaction and it's only later when I'm reflecting why in the middle of a train station or I smell something that's like, I don't know what's happening right now. It's so overwhelming. But it's so true what you're saying that we hold all of this in terms of it really does not pass consciously. It's not something that is you can learn store and then delete. That's not the way it works. It's so much more complicated than that. So I feel that's why I want to give the space for all of these approaches and all of these feelings that do need to actually come out when you recognize that this is your personal space around it.

 

Patra:

Yeah, yeah.

 

Michelle:

Okay. So Uganda, Australia, right? It was remind me if there was a country in between.

 

Patra:

No, there was no country

 

Michelle:

Between. Okay. Sorry, I just want to make sure. Yeah. Okay. So alright, let's move into how you ended up in Australia then, because that's also for so many reasons. Fascinating. But yeah, kind of walk us through that.

 

Patra:

So I studied and then finished my uni and in Uganda there's a lot of unemployment going on and also culturally, professionally, mentally, everything is not to sound condescending, but it's like a time capsule. Just a lot of things we're still stuck in the years behind. And so my mom made a decision for me to study abroad because employment wise it's going to be great and also to just give me a life that probably Uganda cannot give me, even if she's worked so hard to put us through education. So that is how I ended up in Australia to study, to have better opportunities to really have this life. I'm so grateful because I had such a huge cultural shock for two years, but I have healed a lot of things with how much it's exposed to me. And I don't think we realize I'm a little bit spiritual as well, but collectively you can tell the energy that is open and free abroad than because I went back to Uganda I think no 2023 and I love it there. Honestly, the time there, everything is just so laid back. Everything is organic and the people are great, but collectively it's still very resistant. And I guess feeling that was very shocking, especially that I am an empath and I feel energy and

Obviously when I was younger, if I told this to my parents I'd probably be like this child just like funny, I shoulda got something. What's going on? Exactly. Yeah. So that's how I ended up in Australia.

 

Michelle:

Yeah, I see. So just to go back to the resistance that you're talking about from the people, is it more like the everyday behaviors of society? Is it more pointed because you've left and come back? Is there a reason for the resistance or are you saying more the

 

Patra:

I think it's more of there's a lot of fear and I can feel the fear collectively. I do not know how to explain this, but it's not really of the way of living because the way of living, that's just how the way of life is. It is. That's just how it is I guess. When you speak about mindsets and the way things are thought through, it's just different. But as someone who has healed and not healed healing, and I've also healed my wound of leaving people behind, I'm okay to meet everyone where they are at. So even if I notice something that someone said to me or the way they're thinking and I know the answer, but then it's probably going to be received in a very different way. I used to get frustrated and I'm like, but this is the solution, just try this. And it was so frustrating at first, but then I realized that I am not responsible for anyone else's feelings, experiences, and choices. I can only be responsible for mine and that's when I started to meet people where they're at.

So if I have a conversation, I will have the conversation. Yes. I think I've just, when it's family or when it's friends, I don't even know how to say this, it can feel like there's a lot of things that I want to talk about. But then I think finding that place in my heart and discipline to realize that, well, let's just meet them where they're at and let's do that in a loving way, not in a way that it's frustrating or I have been there, but now I can speak with someone and have a conversation and connect without trying to problem solve their life or problem solve what they're bringing to me. Yeah, it's hard, but I'm not sure how I have been able to do that and I'm grateful that I can do that. Yes.

 

Michelle:

I think something you're touching on also is something that some people will not see because we often talk about recognizing, well it's become a very hot topic to set boundaries. So it's like the whole world is trying to set boundaries right now, just put up a wall. Exactly. And I think something that many people who move countries or end up, it doesn't really matter the details of the situation. Basically you're not living in your home country. The nuance in that conversation kind of changes because when we talk about setting boundaries, I think we often think about inside of a contained circumstance, environment or society. So at work or when I go to deal with my family or I go to deal with this ex of mine or something. So very precise, specific circumstances versus I think what you're touching on is something that I know as well.

Something that shifts inside of your ability to see where you came from and see where you are now and kind of decide for yourself, alright, what is society? What is culture? What is tradition? What is my personal family's history? What is my friend's personality? You can kind of get through all those layers in a way that somebody who has never left the country may not be able to do. You see where I'm going? Yes. So it's this area I've personally found is very difficult to explain to people who have never left say my hometown, right? My friends. Because when we talk about it could be something similar to you, the resistance in others or I don't say resistance, I often use ignorance or just other stronger terms, but they're kind of like, yeah, okay, so just set those boundaries and then the end and I'm like, no, no, no, no, no, no, no. It's so much more complicated than just go cut these people off. These people are your connections back to your home, your roots, your home country roots, your culture, your everything. You can't just cut off a whole country. Even if you see problems inside of the way that people behave, you can't just go and reject it entirely because in some ways how would you reconcile that in yourself, right?

 

Patra:

Yeah. And you know what? My values have actually really helped me with this because a lot of the time I am approaching a conversation or a situation with a goal of connection instead of trying to be hard or seen, even if it's a wound that's probably might be triggered by this person or they put me through a lot of things. It's more like when I go with that value of mine, my value is connection and this is what I'm going to focus on. It breaks away a lot of resistance for me. And also my triggers are less, they're softer because I know the goal and I have made this decision that this is a person that's probably going to be in my life for my entire life, and I accept the fact that maybe they may never wake up or maybe they will. I accept that fact and I am okay to connect with them where they're at. And yeah, I guess that's the best way I can put that forward in my experience, how I think I've been able to break through that.

 

Michelle:

I think it gives you a little bit of space also inside of yourself, you can find a bit more peace, dare I say, right? Because you're not responsible for the timeline of that other person. And it's not this sort of condescending, I'm better than you. I've awakened, I'm enlightened. I transcended this attitude over here. I'm way for you to figure it out.

 

Patra:

You should listen to me.

 

Michelle:

Yeah, but oh God, oh my God, all our mothers, I just heard all of them.

 

Patra:

All our ancestors are just like, I know.

 

Michelle:

Yeah. So I feel like what you're saying is a really healthy balance. So I appreciate you sharing that. If you don't mind me asking directly, do you think it's a little bit of imposter syndrome that you had or sometimes still have with English, let's say? Because I also want to put this in the context of you living now in Australia and things that come from being a, I don't like to say this word because I feel like there are better words to say. I use the word international. Most people use the word foreign. So a foreign person in society.

 

Patra:

Yes.

 

Michelle:

Or can we kind of unpack this us?

 

Patra:

For me, I guess it was definitely probably imposter syndrome, not feeling enough because aside from the connection of learning language at such a young age and obviously having no option, this is just the way it is. I also had a bigger goal to always, I'm learning English now so that in case I have to speak to, we call them the foreign people or I don't know how to say it. The white people, we call them the girl, we call them bga. So the bigger goal, so whenever I speak to, I will be able to speak to them and connect with them. It was always just not feeling enough. And it's not even just me. I feel like it's a generational thing because our parents were also, they also had to go through that and they thought, this is the better way to, this is what would be better for my child, so I'm going to do this. So it was just the ignore. They did know. They knew this was the best thing. They just know this was the better thing to do and let's do it. But I feel like the cultural shock that I experienced was really not feeling like I belonged to now. It was from context, it was from Uganda where we are all Ugandans, and you will see Aon go once in a while and you get excited. You speak with them, they're like, oh my God, my English

Now. It was, I am Ugandan, a lot of mgo. And it was like, what this is, I dunno how to, I think it was overwhelming as well to just move country and just feel like I didn't belong, feel I wasn't enough. And yes, the imposter syndrome as well. Yes. I feel like that's it.

 

Michelle:

Yeah.

 

Patra:

Yeah.

 

Michelle:

What I think is so unfair about that by the way, is that English is a language you were forced to learn. And for me, I have strong feelings about how to learn it. Even if you didn't live inside an English, what we consider native English speaking country, there are other native languages that were deprioritized so that English could come through and then here you fully able to use the language, but because of the way that there are other perception based things at work, other ways people are seeing you evaluating you, judging you. I feel that that's not, it's just not fair to, it's a Michelle thing. It's not like a universal thing, but it's not fair. Michelle thinks it's fair for Patra to basically go through this. Because even for me, and I always say that if my family didn't choose to immigrate to the us, and I'm not talking like white collar immigration, do you know what I mean? I'm talking like flea country immigration. So this type of immigration, you really, it's up to chance to decide where you end up. I could have ended up in a different country that wasn't an English speaking country and then had a totally different life. So it's by luck that I became so lucky, I think to have a, I just use the same word, but to have this type of multilingual experience and one inside of an English speaking country. I find that it's completely, yeah, I feel like it's personally on a personal level, it's unfair.

 

Patra:

I do. And no, it is, I have felt like that as well. In fact, I do have my reserved wishes of, I just wish this was something that was taught in schools because to tell you I cannot write my mother tongue language yet I speak it so fluently. So that is something that I feel was robbed and it's still being robbed.

But this goes to a very larger problem in Uganda that would become very political and it's still very unsafe to speak about that even right now. And that's why I feel like I have made peace with a lot of the unfair stuff that have happened. And I have made a choice to choose with my family or with the friends that I still have to choose connection and be there for them when they don't have someone else to just be there. Yes. That

 

Michelle:

Makes bigger. Absolutely. It makes sense. That brings bigger picture. Yeah. Yeah, it does.

 

Patra:

And now, so we leave our countries and we come to Western developed countries to make money and all that, but then we background, we are Ugandan. That is our heritage. And I feel like that is our heritage we should be really proud of. And those are legacies. We are moving, we are passing down. It's very unfair to do that to our children, to not make them, especially something as valuable as language. And I think even speaking about this now, my body is still going into that vulnerable mode, but it's just some things that you see. And like I said, I just know how to really be there and not take on responsibility and react or do all these things. Yet I can connect and maybe hopefully that will do something because, but yeah, I just feel like it's so unfair that we would do that to our children. It would be even something as simple, just listen to songs from your countries, like Uganda songs. That's something that is so valuable, but we just want to erase ourselves off the earth. That's what I see it just like do we hate ourselves so much or our heritage or our ancestors are, it's so deep and it gets very, very painful

Really quick. But yeah, I guess that's something that I wanted to say.

 

Michelle:

Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely. You talked about how our parents and ancestors did not really know what they were doing when they were making these choices necessarily. I think I did. Even if they were intentionally making them, they never went that layer deeper to examine the repercussions of such a decision, right? Because definitely it followed I think a massive trend, which was basically feel a lot of shame for being born into the lesser cultures of the world and work to get your child to be as close to the thing in power, which changed based on history and where you lived in a lot of other reasons. But for a lot of people was either the British empire, the French Empire, or you know what I mean? There were a few different ones. Now, yes, the difficulty I think that many of us in this day and age are facing is okay, so we recognize we all have different ways of handling that with family.

We can recognize it. What I notice in my conversations with others is, okay, so then what will I do about it? Because maybe you met a partner who is not from the same background as you, right? Or even from the same cultural background. You guys have different philosophies on this or maybe you and your partner both moved to a new country and also there is three or four other cultures now in the mix, or it could really be split into a lot of different cases. So I'll ask you if you can talk about a little bit how you're handling this with your kids right now and actually with your partner too, if you're comfortable with that. Make him learn the freaking language is what I'm saying.

 

Patra:

I love what you said that, so thank you for calling me out. Yes. So I do love what you said of what am I going to do about this? That was so powerful because that personal responsibility is something that up to now a lot of, I think multicultural people still avoid. You can do something about it. So I guess what I am doing is I do try to get into the community and what my children to be aware of the language, the food, and I get my partner to get into that community as well.

He does know a few gando words, which is very, I think it's really good that he does know. The other thing that I really do with my daughters is we just learn a few words, some words they will just speak in my mother tongue, which honestly makes me proud when I, no offense if anyone from my community is hearing this, but when I go in the community and I hear that, oh, they can speak that. Oh, mine cannot. It's something that I, in that moment, obviously I think being multicultural or this is something that I learned growing up, I just know how to not be, what do you mean? Or change my face. I'm just like, I'm just very proud in that moment. My children know this and they know the language we watch. There's this YouTube channel that all the songs that I grew up hearing,

They love those songs. They will sing them. And that is something that I am doing. And even when I am thinking of going back to Uganda or even speaking with them, I am just sometimes intentional and I will speak in my language and I know my children are very aware that mom speaks two different languages and one of them is just so interested and she'll look at me and that is something that I'm doing about it. My inner critique would tell me that you should be doing more blah, blah, blah, blah. There's other families. But to be honest, me and my partner are different cultures, his English speaking. So even if I did more, probably could, but it's just I am compassionate that I'm doing something just perfect is great, but Dan is better.

 

Michelle:

Plus you are doing not just something, but it's your part and their part also individually. And so even if you put them through, let's just take the most extreme, you sent them off, right? Go and be immersed in this, I don't know, school environment, social environment, whatever actually doesn't work because it's all in English in your country. So basically it would backfire, but you know what I mean.

 

Patra:

Exactly what all the other, I mean what I did, but I'll say the reason why I say I probably can do better is because I have cousins who are Dutch,

Their dad is Dutch, and they did grow up in Uganda. And their father, obviously my auntie, she was speaking English and Uganda, they did know a bit of Uganda when they were younger, but their father spoke Dutch until they grow up and now they speak fluent Dutch. So that's why I am, my inner critique gets really loud because it was like if he could do it, it was in Uganda. It wasn't in Netherlands, and he was able to do it. So I guess that's why, I dunno, I think it is very possible to do more, but that's why I think I,

 

Michelle:

Well, yes. And also with the caveat of it doesn't all fall on you. So my piece on, for instance, it really doesn't because I've seen it so many times, even in my own family, everyone grew up Mandarin speaking in my family, how many people in my generation are fluent? Not a hundred percent. So I'm just going to, my family hates me anyway, so whatever. But my generation really hates me. But I am one of the only ones that is so comfortable with the language. And it's also because I had the longest exposure time to my grandparents. And so that is very, very different. And it was an intentional choice to be close with them, to maintain that connection even into adulthood. They passed recently, but it's like that was on me to step into. And that's why it's also not just on the biological parent or on, do you see what I mean? It's also on the kids

Themselves to grow up and decide that they actually want to stay with the language. And I put myself through an immersion program in China because I didn't feel like my Chinese was definitely on the reading and writing side was not good enough. But that was me. It was not because family could have done more. And I think if family did do more, I probably wouldn't have chosen it to be honest. I probably would've been like, this is so annoying. Why do I need this? Right? Why do I need this stupid language? It's so hard, my God. So I just want to give you some grace, okay. With this.

 

Patra:

Yeah, thank you for saying that because it puts a lot of things into perspective for me and my daughters are young, but I love that you still did that. You made that choice. And yeah, it just puts things really into perspective for me and it also gives me even more grace that,

 

Michelle:

Yeah, thank you.

You're doing, I know your work on, I follow you online. I know what your work is about. You are doing, I think just beyond what the average person is already doing in terms of there's only 24 hours in a day. We are human. We cannot be doing everything. So yeah, just remember that. Okay. I want to go into how specific circumstances, if you're comfortable in Australia, things that you may have experienced being, I'm just going to say it being not white, right? Number one. Number two, how you actually feel. Do people compliment you on your English in Australia or is it

 

Patra:

Yes.

 

Michelle:

Okay. How does that feel?

 

Patra:

A whole lot of times it's always like, where are you from? I'm from Uganda. Okay, your English sounds really good. Yes, because we study and speak English. Okay. It's that every single time when someone speaks with me,

They will ask that question. And at the moment, in the beginning, it was always like this badge of honor, I wore my English is actually really good. And then it became really quickly, it was like, what do you mean mean by that? And then it shifted quickly to, yeah, I mean we study English because we're colonized and all that. So it's a whole lot of stages that went through with that question. And right now, because I'm healing and I don't want to give anyone the opportunity or even the slight, I don't want to give my power away to make for them to make me feel a type of way. I don't want to feel angry or that. So it's always like I am answering the question and that's it. And sometimes we'll get awkward looks and I will give it back and that's it. It's just like I'm just more neutral with it because I just don't want to feel, I just don't want to give my power. That makes

 

Michelle:

Sense. It completely makes sense. And I have to tell you, I have never once thought to compliment someone on their English, ever, ever. Or it doesn't even matter where you came from or ever. It's something so strange. And

 

Patra:

It's very strange. Yeah. When you say that it's really strange, what do you mean? There's a lot of layers that would come with that. And I think that's why I made a decision to not give that power where I'm happy with myself. I think there's a stage where it was more like a blaming thing. Okay, so because I'm black, I cannot speak good English or because I'm not from America, African

 

Michelle:

American stuff, I know, oh my God, I know because I'm not that, but I cannot speak separate episode. What

 

Patra:

Do you mean? And I also get some compliments of they think I'm from America because of the English. And it's like possible. The accent is very different.

 

Michelle:

Very different. Really. I think everyone listening is like, what?

 

Patra:

So it used to do my head in and that's why I made a decision to stop. I'm not giving anyone my power and I'm just going to see it as neutral. You're asleep or you're awake. That's okay.

 

Michelle:

It is condescending. I actually do think it's, even if it's not intended, it does come off that way.

 

Patra:

It really is. And I feel like when I wore it as a badge of honor, when I was complimented, you have really good English, okay, now all the education I have really done is now paying off. But it was something else that it was doing. It was making me even more forget and identify more as the English person. So now I have to, in very subtle ways, I am starting to change the tone. It's like a full identity change,

Which the other way it was more like free and now it's more serious. And the vocabulary wound was just now very amplified.

Now I'm not saying it right or I'm not doing, it's not enough English. I don't know enough words in English.

Yeah, It did a lot subconsciously. But I feel like when you start to take out all these layers and all these parts, you realize how the whole system is just like bs. Yeah. It's chaos. You're multicultural own lingo, and you speak more than one language. You cannot really see the subtle ways that your actually identity shifting, which is okay, but it's a lot of work. It's a lot of work and it's very, I do not know a word to even fit into that, but I guess that's what I wanted to say. 

 

Michelle:

Yeah, that's the piece that comes back again, a lot of people talk about when you change your language, you change your world. And I do really believe that what you're honing in on this different identities thing, I tend to say it's different versions of me, but I will absolutely agree that I do have to shift and change when I'm in different languages. And that is the, we go again, we bring it back to that's the weirdness of being given a so-called compliment for something that you've already taken into as one of your identities or your variations on your identity. So it's a little bit like, well, why wouldn't I have this as a piece of me? Because it is so formative. It came so early, is so complicated. I do hear a lot of people saying, oh, well, it's a compliment. Why wouldn't you be happy about it? And I do think we're kind of getting into the reasons why people would not be happy to hear, to be complimented on a language that they learned and speak every day.

 

Patra:

And it's good. Yeah. What do you mean it's good? Obviously it's a lot. It's something that's so deep to uncover and it's very important because I am a firm believer that we have so much power in our voice. It's like an expression of ourselves, and that's where we get to express with language as well. So for it to not be important is just, it's my bing for me.

 

Michelle:

Yeah.

 

Patra:

Yeah.

 

Michelle:

I think it also implies that the other person is part of the group that gets to validate who is good or bad inside of the language when you are also part of the group that speaks the language. So you're also do what I mean, you're all, and they're making these micro divisions. I'm trying to talk through why it's so annoying, to be honest.

 

Patra:

You can let it all out.

 

Michelle:

Okay. So identity. How do you see your identity shifting then inside the languages?

 

Patra:

So it's very nuanced, honestly. Even when I am learning or attempting to learn a new language, I like the theory part and the translation, but most things that really excite me are the nuances, like the expressions of, so I can say the same thing in Luanda, and it can be very funny, and the tone, the gesture and everything is just different. And I would say the same thing in English, and it will be so plain. And if I use the same nuance as the torn and the gestures, it would be received very differently. Why? I see it as more of, it's not just language. It's like for obviously connection purposes and communication, you can say the same thing and it will be seen so differently. But that's why I feel like it's more like you have to change to be able to be received. Yeah. That's why I see it as it's like a little micro. This is how, this is what I'm expressing and this is how I am. And even ina, it's like, okay, this is just how I'm, this is how It's also brought a lot of understanding, honestly for me, because being, I know how to tell different tones, but also I know how those tones can really change.

And one memory that comes to mind, I used to work with, I'm not being stereotypical or anything, but I used to work with this Indian girl and I was a chef, so whenever it was order time, it's stressful and all that, the voice changed in English, it really changed. But in that moment, I was able to understand this is probably how it is in probably their language, but if I wasn't multilingual, it would be a huge problem. So I guess that's why I see it as just a little micro or an identity shift, dare I say. Yeah.

 

Michelle:

Yeah. I do think that dimension of you can see that it's the other person's background, their culture, their identity in another language that's super imposed onto the new language or whatever language you're communicating with that's influencing the output and not them intentionally acting in a certain way. This has actually come up in my life quite a lot when I'm on different teams and people are arguing with each other, and I'm kind of there, it dawned on me at one point, I'm like, I think I'm the only one who speaks different, or at least thinks about it in this way. I am like, oh, okay, so I see what's going on here. The monolingual people don't understand that the multilingual people aren't intentionally trying to be assholes. They are just not expressing it in the way that we're used to with the English language.

 

Patra:

Yeah, yeah. The way that the nuances.

 

Michelle:

Yeah.

 

Patra:

Yes.

 

Michelle:

Do you feel like your personality changes or your behavior, or do you feel like you're more, many people say they're introverted, extroverted differences. Do you have words that you can put on your language identities?

 

Patra:

That's a really good question. I would say in the past, I probably did have a different personality. When I was speaking English, I was more confident alive, but then I was also hiding in a way, sorry, I'm looking outside because the sprinkler just came on and the window was open and the water, oh, mess. But now I do notice a shift because I know I will be received differently if I did bring my whole grounded self into this. So I still noticed a few shifts, but it's not as, I think rigid or it felt mostly trapped how it used to be. I felt like I couldn't express myself in one language than the other. Yes.

 

Michelle:

You had to cut and modify and change for that language. Is that right? Yes. I

 

Patra:

Had to, yeah. And well, as now I can bring the whole self, but because I can tell there's probably a few things that are not going to be received in the way I intend to. So now I can actually feel it. I'm more aware when I'm changing the language.

 

Michelle:

And

 

Patra:

I never used to do that because it was more blind. It was more if I change this, now I'm ra, who is my pride personality, and if I change this, oh, now I don't have a filter or anything. And now, yeah, so it's now I'm more aware when I change the language, I'm like, okay, this is how it's going to verse, but this is what

 

Michelle:

I say. Yeah, that's something I've done too. And it's only when I realized I was changing languages, and that's because I had to add a third language and I was like, oh. And it was made known to me over and over again. So English and Mandarin. Oh, and French. So it was other people telling me what languages I was speaking. I wasn't even aware when I was switching between, I mean, obviously I knew when I would use different languages, but it's like what you were saying, I was literally flipping between different Michelles. And now when I use English or Mandarin, it's not flipping into different Michelles, obviously, you have to scale it and adapt it for the cultural nuances of communication, but I'm not changing myself. And that I think is really powerful and really cool.

 

Patra:

Yeah, that's exactly what I meant.

 

Michelle:

Yeah.

 

Patra:

I feel like we should, the industry of language,

 

Michelle:

I

 

Patra:

Feel like we should have more grace, and especially with people learning different languages and such comments, imagine someone just learn English and they're being told, oh, your English is, and probably they're already self-aware, my English is whatever word they're going to use. Yeah, I feel like even in English teaching, they should be more teachers that really teach those expressions that would help or help the other person feel more like up sitting into a new language. This is me, but I can do this. I think it's pretty cool, actually. I dunno. I feel like being multicultural or multilingual, it's usually seen as an advantage. And it's seen this somewhere I don't remember. That would be like, oh, if you speak one or more or one or two languages, then you are smarter. Or if your child does this, and it feels like more of an asset than an actual balance.

 

Michelle:

Burden.

 

Patra:

Yeah, an actual balance. And people probably do even underestimate the actual hard work that goes into even knowing, not learning, knowing too languages.

That takes sense. And obviously the cultural stereotypes who want to say, oh, your English is really good.

Is it because of how I look? Is it because of this? Yeah, that's all I think I could say. I don't know how to put that in really.

 

Michelle:

I call it the right words. No, I mean, so the first part, absolutely. The industry does not, and when I say industry, there's no standard internationally on how people educate in languages. So perhaps inside of a country, they have their own program or their own curriculum, but there's nothing that has made this standard across the world yet. It seems to be kind of all different versions of the same. We're going to teach you a lot of grammar. We're going to teach you a lot of advanced vocabulary. We're going to put you inside of rigid, right? And that I personally will not touch because I know that that sort of institution will take forever to break down. So that's why in my work, I go straight to the people. I go straight to the source. If you want to work with me, go to you. I don't go to the random department or ministry or whatever that oversees this because by the time they get what I'm saying, because something that you and I can talk about or clients and professionals and other places can talk about in five minutes, they are going to take 500 billion years to get the first point. So I've given up on that.

 

Patra:

That's the fight I gave up on. I think when I was speaking earlier. I gave up on it and chose something else, chose the value and went with that. It's a lot of work.

 

Michelle:

And then the second part of the, I call it the burden of multilingualism or multiculturalism, because you're right, a lot of people, especially I see this in families that I think they're trying to overcorrect for what they consider the mistakes of the past. And so it's very interesting being a minority person being told I have an advantage or a privilege to be what I am. Because I was raised bilingual, again, by my own choice as well, but that I had the privilege to have access to that. A little weird to get right as in comment, but there's a whole wave, especially in my local area, my hometown area. There are so many families that want to send their kids through different types of immersion schools, and they do, for instance, math and Spanish and history in French and whatever, and they are absorbing, I guess different languages, four to five of them within their whole K to 12 years.

So I personally wouldn't do that as a parenting choice. I wouldn't do it. But in terms of what I see in terms of the trend, it's like, oh, it could only be good. It can only be great. It could only be fantastic that you have all of these tools and skills. It's kind of like knowing how to play multiple sports or knowing different instruments language too. And it's like, no. I mean, yes, in a certain circumstance, if you need to use it for work, it could be good. But if you actually want to know what it is to be a multilingual or multicultural speaker and person in this world, there is a burden and there is a responsibility, and there is something that comes that's deeper than just the surface level language. And I think that's the part that a lot of people cannot get because they didn't live this. So I think definitely thank you for bringing that up because that's definitely a point that, again, I have no solution to most of these things. I have no solutions. I swear to God, this stupid podcast is just for me to give us space. I'm like, I know when you were like, you don't have to problem solve. I'm like, but I'm trying to problem solve all the time.

 

Patra:

Yeah.

 

Michelle:

I really feel that this is the most that I can do. Just make the space to bring these, your experiences, other people's experiences into the light and show that this is something real that happens. What comes out of it, I can't control, but this at least is what is within my capabilities.

 

Patra:

I feel like it's so powerful though that you're doing that.

 

Michelle:

Thank you.

 

Patra:

It's a lot

 

Michelle:

Of work. So I appreciate that.

 

Patra:

It's a lot of work. Honestly. It is a lot of work, but I can tell you're so passionate about it and you've done it. I didn't even know I would have something like this to speak about language and how that has affected me and how I've navigated my life being cultural. And I feel like this space, you've probably changed my life, even just speaking on the podcast. So it is a lot.

 

Michelle:

Thank you. Thank you for saying that. Well, okay, thank you for being here. But before we go, I'm going to give you the floor to talk a little bit about your work because it does cross over. We talk generational patterns, right?

 

Patra:

Yeah. Obviously I learned hypnotherapy because one, I wanted to be a psychologist growing up, and I have a passion for helping people, the kind of person who wants to know, learn about you, and very, I feel like everyone is just so important. And my experiences made me want to learn more about myself. And then I realized I wanted to help people as well. Two hypnotherapy. It's much deeper work than just, I'm not discrediting traditional therapy. It's much deeper. And as someone who has seen those layers of unconscious, subconsciously generational, I felt like hypnotherapy was as close as I could get with that.

And becoming a mom made me really passionate about helping moms uncover those limiting beliefs, even about motherhood, the voices of their past and their generations that have been going on for generations for years. And I probably don't even know that. So I am self-concept hypnotherapy. I do identity work, generational patterns, generational healing and emotional regulation. I feel like where we are going in society, it's going to be a lot of uncovering all these deeper things that I feel like this is the time to do it. It's been a long time coming and it's been building up, and now this is the time to liberate humanity or liberate ourselves from the past. So I have my program, which is holistic balance accelerator, and it's for the moms who's ready to shatter those generational patterns, to build that emotional intelligence, emotional regulation, and be that model for their children, be that calm, confident role model and leader of their family to build those legacies of children who are more emotionally intelligent. They are resilient. They can also identify things like this, the nuances, the start of things that have been unheard and unturned. And my Instagram handle is the aligned mama

Changing that name. It was so scary. I thought about it for three months, and I'm like, I want to check my name to the aligned mama, but

 

Michelle:

Wait, what was it before?

 

Patra:

It was my name.

 

Michelle:

Okay. Because when I connected with you, and this is really, it just shows how deep and personal I can get with the right people in a very short amount of time. Because I only connected with you a few months ago, and you were already under that name.

 

Patra:

And you know what? My life has just opened up and I don't feel so alone anymore. Honestly, seeing your posts makes me even more stronger to say, no, put my foot down. What do you mean? I have this powerful women around me. So I am not alone. And before it was just, I have connected with a lot of moms. I'm not going to lie with my social media, but before that, I just felt alone. I felt like being self-aware was it just felt lonely, and my world has just opened up. Really?

 

Michelle:

Yeah. Isn't that interesting how that happens, by the way, the more self-aware you are, the lonelier it can get because you start to see how much you brought up. I think you brought up BS before, but all the sort of superficial nonsense that circulates and what we think is closeness or we think is friendships or connections is really just, it's a lot of crap, actually. And I don't think those who are looking for that deep inner personal journey, and it could be in any sphere, it could be language, it could be looking at your own family. There's so many different ways to go, but if you're not there, you're not there. Do you know what I mean? And once you get there, you realize, okay, this is a personal space.

 

Patra:

Yeah. This is something, it's so sacred as well. And also realizing how many connections you've had that are just trauma bones and breaking out of that is so it can be hard, but you just have to rip the bandaid off. Yeah.

 

Michelle:

That overlaps with what I talk about also with culture. It's never a connection I've made publicly, but I'll do it now. Trauma bonding can also show up when people think it's culture. So, okay, I'm going to connect with this person from my home country because we were both inside of this broken model, and we don't have time to go deeper into all that. That's the reason that you, yeah, that's the reason. And something I always ask people, and it's really a philosophical question, but it's like, are the toxic aspects of a culture? How do we see them? And there's no international or universal panel on what is toxic or not, but definitely certain things from the past, we can all identify in our own cultures, in our own family's histories, in our own traditions, that when you talk about breaking cycles, it's also that separating out what is culture, what is tradition, what is literally stuff that you don't need to hold onto anymore as representations of you.

For sure. I think a lot of people, you and I have talked about the old world mindset stuff, but a lot of my friends who are from East Asian cultures really struggle with this right now because they were raised to think that those cultures represented a certain model that they are not necessarily comfortable carrying on to their children. But does that mean giving up on what they were told this entire time was them? So it gets very, very complicated. Nuanced is a word that comes up every single day, but I think life is nuanced. I think you do too, right? Yeah. We can't avoid it. We just have to learn how to work our way through it. I think.

 

Patra:

Yeah. I can have a whole conversation with you for a week, honestly. I know. Let's book a retreat somewhere. Let's do it. Yeah. It also just makes me so grateful for tools like technology. Can you imagine you lived your whole life somewhere and I lived my whole life somewhere, and we did connect. That would've been sad, but I'm just

 

Michelle:

I know. I know. Well, thank you. Thank you for taking the time to be here, because shout out to technology for sure. Thank you for making this possible. Thank you for all the things. I mean, of course it has given us a lot of other problems, but that's neither here nor there.

 

Patra:

Yeah.

 

Michelle:

But also thank you for taking the time out of your busy day to talk with me.

 

Patra:

Well, thank you so much for inviting me as well, and for your perspective and your passion and your attention to the details. It just always blows my mind because I wish I was like you a lot of the times. I'm like, I always tell myself, just embody, do it

 

Michelle:

My mess. I can do it. That's not untrue. Yes, that is. I am very pro kind of, what is it called? Graceful failure, whatever it is. It's not perfect. It's not at all. It's never what I think it will be, but it's like just go and do it. And fearlessly, I think is probably the word. Yeah,

 

Patra:

Yeah. But just so you know, we're all, I have a mess too, so it's okay. I can take the mess. Also a mess. Yeah. Well, thank you so much.